Skyscript Astrology Forum

Some reflections from Anthony Louis blog:

Might be interesting to read for the general sidereal public:

http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2013/10/ ... -sidereal/

Thanks for the reference, Stefan. It's so nice to see another name on the sidereal forum! Though there are many views, there are only a handful of Skyscript members who post here.
In the past I remember doing some work on Baghdad's chart, but I can't find that work, so will have to start over. The chart is a really good one showing how the sidereal zodiac has to be used when checking transits and solar returns for important Iraq dates. We have three astrological references that I know of:

(1) James H. Holden's "The Foundation Chart of Baghdad" Holden sets the chart for Saturday, 31 July 762 in the Julian calendar.

(2) Konrad's "Masha'allah and the Founding of Baghdad" (esmaralda-astrology.com) I cannot read the chart on the site because of poor graphics quality. Konrad applies ancient techniques in discussing the chart. An interesting read!

(3) Anthony Louis' blog: "The Foundation of Baghdad--Tropical versus Sidereal" The chart in this article is set for 2:50 p.m. Anthony Lewis has used the Fagan-Allen ayanamsa which places Mars at 29 Taurus 24. Using whole sign houses Mars does not aspect the ascendant. http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2013/10/ ... -sidereal/

If the ayanamsa is changed to Lahiri or Krishnamurti, Mars moves to Gemini, which is entirely appropriate in light of Iraq's history of conflict, violence and bloodshed. All three astrologers give a Sagittarius ascendant for Baghdad's chart. When I compute the chart later I'll be able to see the exact difference between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs in A.D. 762.

I hope to have time this weekend to post the Baghdad chart with some comments on transits and solar returns for important dates.

Hi Therese,

the best choice in the science is to use not the secondary sources but the primary. See please this one:

http://archnet.org/library/documents/on ... nt_id=3776


Greetings,

Dimitar

Dimitar, that link left me puzzled. What to read? Can you quote from the reference you advise? I don't have the time for extensive reading. Are you saying that the date astrologers are using for the foundation of Baghdad is incorrect or open to question?

Thanks,
Therese

Please read, pp.61-66, from the chapter VI " Some Evolutionary and Cosmological Aspects to Early Islamic Town Planning" of the book "Theories and Principles of Design in the Architecture of Islamic Societies" , Ibrahim Allawi, 1988 (the link to this chapter I published in my previous post).

There you will find the opinions of two old authors about the horoscope of Baghdad : al-Biruni(XI) and Ibn al-Faqih(IX). The author of the book, Ibrahim Allawi, also published facsimile of the original horoscope of al-Biruni preserved in the single MS in the Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris.

Pay special attention on p. 65 from the same book.

Dimitar

Dimitar, it took me a few minutes to get the hang of using the Digital Library. So I have studied the pages you suggested, especially page 65.

Now what am I supposed to be noticing? Am I correct in that the chart was set with the ascendant and Jupiter in 6 degrees of Sagittarius?

I did note in the table of positions on page 65 that Mercury was placed in the wrong sign, in Gemini. Modern computation places Mercury in the last decanate of Cancer. (both tropical and sidereal) Or aren't these zodiacal positions? Actually I don't understand the modern computations in the table.

Is this a zodiac question? We know that the Persian sidereal zodiac was set in the year 564. The zero point was ten minutes east of Zeta Piscium. Since I use Krishnamurti tables, this is a difference of 3 degrees 53 minutes from the Krishnamurti zero Aries point. If we take the 2:40 pm foundation position of Jupiter (in the Krishnamurti zodiac) at 2 Sag 15, and add 3 degrees 53 minutes, the result is 6? 08' Sagittarius. [later edit to correct 43' to 53']

By Al Biruni's time the tropical zodiac was in use, so his calculations may be tropical.

Therese

The link Dimitar gave to ancient city planning was quite interesting to read. I've had some time to check the modern tropical calculations for Baghdad's horoscope given in the book (page 65). Several of these positions are off base from those given by today's astrological software. The book was published in 1988, the time period when good DOS based astrological software was just entering the market. The author of the book obviously didn't have this software at his disposal. Here is a comparison of software based calculations (Solar Fire 5) with those given in the book. True tropical positions are given in parenthesis.

Sun
10 Leo 58 (10 Leo 47)

Saturn
1 Ari 25 (1 Tau 27)

Jupiter
8 Sag 48 (8 Sag 47)

Venus
2 Can 58 (2 Cnc 44)

Mercury
26 Gem 53 (26 Cnc 54)

Moon
27 Lib 29 (27 Lib 37)

Mars
2 Gem 04 (6 Gem 55)

Saturn and Mercury are both misplaced by sign in the table. Perhaps this was some kind of careless oversight since the degrees are nearly correct, but one sign off. The signs for Saturn, Venus and Mercury (tropical) are incorrect in the two ancient sources listed in the table.

Ibn al-Faqih (10th century) places Jupiter exactly at 6 degrees of Sagittarius to synchronize with the original city plan. However, the tropical position of Jupiter at that time was 8 degrees 47 minutes. As I wrote in my previous post, Jupiter is in or near the sixth degree of Sagittarius in the Persian sidereal zodiac used at the time of Baghdad's foundation. James Holden's 2:40 PM time places both Jupiter and the ascendant in a degree that equates to 6 Sagittarius in the old Persian zodiac. (2+ degrees Krishnamurti or Lahiri)

If no one disagrees with the information in this post, I can post some transits to Baghdad's chart for significant dates. The 2:40 PM sidereal chart seems to work well.

Therese

OK.
I will clear my post.

Dimitar, here we are discussing the chart of the Foundation of Baghdad, and I'll continue with that topic. Perhaps you would like to start a new topic for your zodiac concerns?

Therese

Baghdad's foundation chart is very valuable because it's a historically timed chart that is centuries old. One of the great cities of the Muslim world, we're familiar with Baghdad as the capital city of the modern Republic of Iraq. Baghdad's birth chart clearly shows the unmistakable value of sidereal mathematics, in this case, timed transits for significant dates centuries after the foundation chart.

I've calculated two birth charts for Baghdad, one in the Krishnamurti sidereal zodiac and the other in the tropical zodiac to show a comparison of contemporary transits, and why tropical astrologers such as Robert Hand use precession correction for solar returns. Solar returns are nothing but transit charts for the Sun's return to its birth position each year.

I've used James Holden's time of 2:40 pm for the foundation chart. BBC News-Middle East has a very good summary of events for Iraq over the centuries. Of the many significant dates for Baghdad, I've chosen 20 March 2003, the invasion of Iraq led by U.S. forces. Saddam Hussein's government was overturned, and this date marked the beginning of years of violent conflict with various groups competing for power.

The bloodshed and violence continues today (November, 2013) with the potent Uranus-Pluto square. Uranus is passing back and forth over Baghdad's 15 Pisces degree IC (Lahiri/Krishnamurti) while the Pluto 90 degree angle from Sagittarius holds tight.

News reports give an approximate 5:30 a.m. time for the entry of the U.S. into Iraq, so I've set the transit charts for that time. Baghdad's natal chart, however, provides the base chart for transits. In March 2003 the Pluto-Saturn opposition crosses the sidereal Baghdad Ascendant/Descendant axis. Saturn is just approaching Mars on he 7th cusp, and exactly conjoined Baghdad's Mars in early April of 2003. On the day of the invasion transiting Moon was in partile trine to transiting Saturn on cusp 7.

In the March 20 transit chart, Uranus opposes Baghdad's 9th house Leo Sun, the regime or sovereign person in power (Hussein). Mercury (7th lord, relationships with other countries) is at the nadir with transiting Sun. This places the military action firmly on Baghdad's home base and affecting the very land the city occupies (4th house). From a high point of power (9th), the Sun is now at the nadir with its 7th house opponent. Baghdad's transiting ascendant lord, Jupiter, is powerless in the 8th.

With an invasion we'd expect to see an active Mars, and on the day of the invasion transiting Mars was in 15 degrees of Sagittarius, Baghdad's ascendant sign, and in partile square to Baghdad's IC.
The tropical transits are not descriptive of this supremely important day for Iraq and Baghdad. Transiting Jupiter is on the 9th (equal) cusp conjoining natal Sun in Leo and in partile trine to natal Jupiter. In the tropical chart we do have Saturn in Gemini squaring the MC/IC axis, but transiting Mars makes no close aspects to Baghdad's natal chart, and the Saturn/Pluto opposition is far from the angles out of orb of aspecting natal Mars. Saturn is 16 degrees past the conjunction to natal Mars.

Please, see also:

THE HOROSCOPE OF BAGHDAD
historical, astronomical, and astrological notes
by Juan Antonio Revilla
http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts ... ghdad.html

and

Astrologer Peter James Clark
Foundation Chart for Baghdad
http://classicalastrologer.me/2008/05/0 ... r-baghdad/

Therese and others..
I follow along this thread with interest as I opened the thread. However I
have not much anything to contribute here myself so I leave it to the schoolars here to explore. Astrological history is not my strong side.