Skyscript Astrology Forum

I have been reading this page about morin's writings on solar returns:

http://www.auxmaillesgodefroy.com/rewri ... in_returns

and as I understand it up to now, a radix planet carries its significations (both in terms of the radix house it is posited in as well as the radix house it rules) to the revolution chart. That being said, does the condition of a planet in the revolution affect the manifestation of the same radix planet?

For example, assume I have jupiter in pisces in the 10th house natally, Assuming that in one year's solar return, the jupiter in that solar return is in gemini and in the 12th house, would this indicate a (relatively) poor year for career and reputation? After reading that entire page and everything morin said, I intuitively felt like he implied that this was the case, but he never definitively said so. (then again maybe I missed it, I have been poring over this page the entire day, and my eyes hurt. Plus trying to understand what morin is trying to say is sometimes an intense mental exercise in and of itself) Rather, he merely said that the radix planet shared in its significations with the same planet's location by house in the solar return, but he never addresses the possible strength or weakness of the planet.

I read this at the very top of the page:

1.a. When judging a return chart, you should see a fractal of the same thing in the natal chart and using other techniques of derived charts (such as progressions, Solar arcs etc). Basically he says that the return chart tells of variations on a theme - if you are generally lucky in your professional life (dignified Jupiter in the 10th), a disastrous placement in the 10th house may show a year where you do not achieve stellar results, but it never indicates professional shame, just a year of hard work where you may reap rewards later.

but I don't know if its referring to the afflicted state of jupiter in the revolution (in contrast to its radix condition) or if its implying that the 10th house in the revolution would be bad because of the presence of afflicted saturn or mars or some other affliction. Or is it referring to both?


So in a nutshell, if a planet is dignified in the natal chart, but the same planet in a solar return chart is afflicted by lack of essential dignity or cadency then this would ultimately negatively affect the (yearly) expression of the radix planet as well as the radix house its in and the radix houses it rules. Is that the correct understanding??

i don't know how many errors there are in the authors work who is responsible for that link, but it is book 23 of morins, not book 13..

regarding this quote from that link - "Note:He uses the term "directions", referring to alternate methods of calculating charts. As far as I can tell, he is referring to any of a variety of methods from transits, to charts derived from the natal charts such as secondary progressions or solar arcs."

the term directions refers to primary directions if morin is using the term as he didn't do sec progs or solar arcs based on my reading of his work.

do yourself a favour and spend a few dollars to get holdens translations of morins work.. we have had this conversation before.. hoping to get everything for free over the net is not a great way to go here. i am unwilling to read or comment on anything else the author of this website has to say based on my above observations..

I agree that it is generally better to use original texts and sources as opposed to merely getting information for free off the internet. That being said, I do resent your assumption that being miserly was my motivation in this case. Anybody here can see that I am not adverse to spending my own money on materials that will help advance my own understanding of astrology. Afterall, I bought my own first traditional astrology book like three weeks ago and I even made a thread about it. Furthermore, I fully intend to purchase more astrology books and astrological programs as my finances allow for it. So my willingness to spend money is not the issue at hand here, the only reason I used that link was because I stumbled across it and found the information on that page interesting enough to analyze for a few hours. Subsequently, I decided to present my thoughts about it, along with my questions regarding it to this forum. If you think I was just using that site as a way to skimp and try to save money then you are reading too much into my actions.

In a nutshell I agree with the content of your message but I think the part where you insinuated that I am cheap and unwilling to spend money on buying quality astrological materials was not only an incorrect assumption but was also poorly worded and condescending. If you want to call me cheap, do so over a PM and I would be fine with it, don't imply I am cheap out in the open where everyone can see.

I am pretty much of the same mind as James however, I will point out a couple of things because I think Morin is somewhat undervalued and being exposed to him is worthwhile.

First to underscore James' point, when Morin says "directions" he means primary directions. In book 22 on Directions, Morin begins: "This is the principal and most divine book of all astrology." This pretty much sums up his opinion of the technique. Solar Arc directions are a 20th century invention. I doubt Morin ever heard of Secondary Progressions even if Placidus had committed his thoughts on them in writing before Morin's death in 1656. Morin does refer to "progressions" in one of his later books, but he is referring to what we call "profections." He rubbished them.

Morin would first delineate the natal chart, then look at the primary directions to see when the most important events of the life would occur, then cast the solar return for that year or returns for those years and finally the lunar returns for more precise timing. The natal chart is the promise or potential of the native's life, the predictive techniques are when that potential will manifest.

Regarding your quote, the fundamental idea of the returns is this: repetitions of what is in the nativity is a strong indication that what is promised will happen that year. Reversals of what is in the natal chart is a strong indications the reverse of what is promised will happen that year. Lunar returns tell you what month. Transits might narrow that down a little more. I'm not persuaded that the rather simplistic statement above is literally true in all cases, but that's a different story.

So in a nutshell, if a planet is dignified in the natal chart, but the same planet in a solar return chart is afflicted by lack of essential dignity or cadency then this would ultimately negatively affect the (yearly) expression of the radix planet as well as the radix house its in and the radix houses it rules. Is that the correct understanding??

You need to look at more than the planet in the SR. If there is a a strong Jupiter in the 10th in the natal chart, it promises much. In order for that promise to be realized there much be some repetition of the natal planet in the return. Jupiter in the 6th in a different sign from the natal Jupiter isn't going to tell you much of anything about that natal promise, meaning nothing much is going to happen in that year. But if Jupiter is in the SR 10th it is significant. So we have let's say, Jupiter exalted in the 10th in the nativity and Jupiter returns to the 10th in the SR but in Gemini, that would indicate little of the natal promise, maybe something. This is just not the year.

If Jupiter is in 10 in Gemini in the the birth cart, and in a return it is in Cancer in the 10th, because Jupiter promises only some good fortune in tenth house affairs, this year is about as good as it is going to get.

There is much much more in Book 23. It is not breakfast table reading. You need to take notes and look at the charts or as I did, cast the charts in more 21st century-friendly formats, and work to understand what he is saying. The effort is more than repaid.

It is not breakfast table reading. You need to take notes and look at the charts or as I did, cast the charts in more 21st century-friendly formats, and work to understand what he is saying. The effort is more than repaid.

That is really great advice, for all astrologers studying traditional techniques, whatever period or author they are studying. It's absolutely the best way to learn and understand. Much more productive than studying what other astrologers say they were doing.

hi astronovice,

i believe you're taking what i said and making it into something that was unintended, perhaps due your own unique sensitivities. i am sorry that happened and apologize for the unintended result. the last part of my comment was directed generally to anyone reading. skyscript has had a number of copyrighted material shared illegally via scribd that was discussed very recently. my last line was speaking directly to that and anyone relying on that as well. further to this, relationships on this forum don't develop via just one thread, but build up over time. i have noticed our relationship here on skyscript develop a certain way and i have some thoughts on the process too which i am not going to burden the board with. suffice to say i said what i said with good intent even if the good intent doesn't get received.

james_m wrote: do yourself a favour and spend a few dollars to get holdens translations of morins work.. we have had this conversation before.. hoping to get everything for free over the net is not a great way to go here.

james_m wrote:hi astronovice,

i believe you're taking what i said and making it into something that was unintended, perhaps due your own unique sensitivities. i am sorry that happened and apologize for the unintended result. the last part of my comment was directed generally to anyone reading. skyscript has had a number of copyrighted material shared illegally via scribd that was discussed very recently. my last line was speaking directly to that and anyone relying on that as well. further to this, relationships on this forum don't develop via just one thread, but build up over time. i have noticed our relationship here on skyscript develop a certain way and i have some thoughts on the process too which i am not going to burden the board with. suffice to say i said what i said with good intent even if the good intent doesn't get received.

james_m wrote: do yourself a favour and spend a few dollars to get holdens translations of morins work.. we have had this conversation before.. hoping to get everything for free over the net is not a great way to go here.

Ok, I understand where you are coming from now. I wasn't aware that skyscript was having a problem with copyrighted material being shared illegally. So that being said, I can now better understand the context of your comment. I apologize if what I wrote came off as testy or harsh. Thank you for your understanding and calm words.

Thanks for the advice tom. I will definitely take your and James' advice and buy my own copy of the book.

Also, could you recommend me a good book for learning about primary directions? Also, what program do you use for primary directions? Currently I use morinus, but I don't know how good that program is for primary directions compared to other programs. Thus far, primary directions haven't seemed to "work" for me, so I don't know if its a failing of the software or my own understanding of primary directions. (probably the latter)

merry christmas astronovice!

get martin ganstens book on primary directions called 'primary directions, astrology's old master technique'.. even better would be to take his course, which i can't afford to do myself!

as for software to do primary directions, i think morinus software is really quite good. their is also delphi oracle software for doing this, but i haven't taken the time to learn how to use the program yet.. i have found morinus easier so far, but one still needs to understand how to put the different primary keys and options in context. martins book will help in this regard, but one still needs to back test the data with events from the past in well known peoples charts, or your own and an accurate birth time. i have been doing this, but it is slow going and i am not completely convinced of a particular approach as of yet. also you could check out tony louis's site too. he has an e book on primary directions along with a few examples on his website here - http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/

good luck with all that!

OK, so I'm reading Skyscript posts on Christmas Day. (To be fair, though, the main celebration here in Sweden was yesterday.)

I haven't read Tony Louis's e-book, but the use of directions that I have seen in his blog posts isn't really traditional. (I don't mean that as a value judgement -- just pointing out that if you want to do directions the way the medievals did them, or even a Renaissance innovator/reformer like Morin, then this is probably not going to get you all the way.)

As James says (thanks for the plug!), my own book is out there, and, if you want to learn the technique in depth, my online course. The latter has the advantage of being updated regularly, as my own practice and understanding of traditional techniques deepen.

As for software, Morinus is excellent freeware, though the latest version of Delphic Oracle (which is not free) is even better.

Regardless of the software used, though, one general piece of advice would be to ignore exact 'hit dates' and focus on what is going on in the chart year by year, using directions as a base and complementing them with profections, revolutions and transits. That is the traditional way. I would also recommend including directions through the terms/bounds, though Morin did not. (Which zodiac to use for the terms is another question -- I personally favour a sidereal measure.)

alright thanks guys I'm going to look into those things.

also Merry christmas!