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Stoicism and Astrology - Robert Zoller

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:56 pm
by Vasanth
Very good article on Stoicism and Astrology by Robert Zoller placing importance on Virtue
(From the NCGR Journal - Winter 1987-1988 (Philosophy Issue))

http://www.geocosmic.org/articles/stoicism.shtml

Quoting from Robert Zoller's interview -
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/zoller.html

But to answer your question about astrology more directly: Astrology, for me, is an indication of God's will. God created the cosmos, the lights, the firmament, and all the rest of that sort of stuff for purposes, for signs and times. In the final analysis, there is only one will - and mine is not that will. So, if I can conform myself to that will and work in accordance with it, perhaps there's a chance that I can achieve those goals that I was referring to. Astrology might help me to do that, or at least it might help me to recognize that my efforts, ultimately, are not good enough - there's something larger that has to come into the picture.

So, to the degree to which you become humbled by astrology and scared of astrology and realize your own incompetence and insufficiency, I think that you arrive at the first step from which real spiritual work can begin. That's my current opinion on the subject. If astrology leads us to that realization, it has done a major service for mankind.

Astrology also, I think, can do service to mankind by showing that things happen in their own times - that the individual human will sometimes appears to be capable of making things happen before their times, but most of the time what people do just nuances, fine-tunes, or twists a little bit the way things actually happen.

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:46 am
by Zagata
Thank you for sharing, Vasanth. :D

Robert Zoller is an absolute must for anyone wanting to get deeper into the real, both predictive and spiritual, Astrology.

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:52 am
by waybread
Vasanth, if you refer to the Bible and the Jewish and Christian religions, then they are not completely fatalistic. It's not simply a question of finding out what God (or the planets) want, and then getting your *** in gear to conform.

Moral choice in the Bible is always an option-- and even an imperative. In the Bible, righteous people sometimes even question God.

Also, humans in the Bible are not disconnected from God. We are a small part of what God is.

Chapters and verses available upon request.

Fatalism in astrology has a much older root than stoicism. The Mesopotamians who invented astrology believed that the planets either were gods, or displayed omens from which the gods' wills could be divined. The ancient Egyptians who long predated stoicism similarly believed in a cosmic order: to shape one's life according to that order was good, to confound it was bad. The ancient Greeks believed in the three Fates, who are not noticeably on the radar for people today.

But if we think about it, these are merely "made up" belief systems. We can apply any sort of belief system to astrology that we want. Obviously, we all think there is some necessary correspondence between planets and events on earth or we wouldn't be here; but the extent to which this correspondence is deterministic is a huge question.

Quantum physics and neuroscience have much to say on this matter.

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:21 am
by Mjacob
Waybread

Would those chapters and verses include the parable of the talents by any chance?

Indeed I would not mind seeing the others.As for philosophy in general I have the idea it is something we read about rather than actually "do"

Must read the Zoller article though

Matthew

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:24 am
by waybread
mjacob, I was thinking of verses like:

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you."
James 4:8, Zechariah 1:3, Malachi 3:7, Psalm 145:18, &c.

"Seek, and you shall find, ask and it shall be given."
Matthew 7:7, Luke 11:9, John 14:13, 15:7; Psalm 37:4, Jeremiah 29:13

Beginning with the garden of Eden and the story of Cain and Abel, the Bible has always stressed the human imperative for moral choice. The Bible also stresses the effectiveness of petitionary prayer.

Incidentally I am not a Christian-- I merely observe that astrology under Christianity is not bound by astral determinism.

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:19 am
by Mjacob
Thank you

I had not presumed that you were but thanks for the refs. I was just thinking of how God or one of his adherents should judge a sinner with a bad chart. We all have two malefics in our charts after all and they can be literally so

Regards

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:41 pm
by waybread
Moreover, we would have to question why the kindly, loving God of the monotheistic religions would create an evil person. Except for a few small sects like the Puritans (who believed in predestination) I think their religious view is children are born innocent but can become evil during their lives.

I read the Zoller links and find him to be a thoughtful person, but am not sure how or why he reached his conclusions.

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:12 am
by Mjacob
Having spent most of my life in the C20th I look back on that era. In the sixties we were optimistic and idealist. but earlier on much wickedness occurred.

If a good person suffers and loses hope they can ask why God has abandoned them. It would be facile to tell them to rely on faith but at least charity remains

My reply is short but but I do spend time reflecting on the issues you raise

Matthew

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:00 pm
by Mark
The excellent BBC Radio 4 programme 'In Our Time' had an episode on Stoicism which is free to listen to:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9fs

Mark

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:04 pm
by Konrad
Thanks Mark, I will listen to that later. I love that Epictetus quote: "Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them."

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:09 am
by Mark

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:37 pm
by Konrad
Thanks Mark. Do you know of any way to rip the audio from the embedded flash player? My usual methods are failing and I would like to listen to these as I work.