Skyscript Astrology Forum

Do Tropical Traits Reflect Underlying Sidereal Signs?

This thread is being started to discuss my thesis that the observed traits of tropical signs really belong to the underlaying sidereal signs. By now this subject is well known and has been discussed before on Skyscript, but with few example charts. Within the last few days Michael Sternbach has questioned this tropical/sidereal thesis. So I?ll begin with Michael?s quote and my reply. On the sidereal thread noted below Michael wrote:

Michael wrote:
But I do feel that in certain instances you twist reality like a pretzel in support of preconceived assumptions. Such as here:

From http//www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/amalefe2.htm

"Mars is probably the planet that is most comfortable with the physical world; Mars can be very persistent and stubborn when it wants to be."

Michael added:
Mars' inherent nature is fast and decisive action; persistence and stubbornness are not traits generally attributed to Mars!

Yet you are using these traits as a major argument in support of your theory of Mars being the ruler of tropical Taurus (which is sidereal Aries in disguise).

More examples available on demand.

Therese replied:
As a matter of fact I'm on firm footing here. The Gauquelins found the terms resolute, self-willed, stubborn and tenacious to be associated with Mars, and as we know, traditionally Mars has been associated with Aries. But I can do better than that. AstroDatabank has several individuals under the category of Stubborn/steadfast. I?ll give you some chart illustrations for sidereal Aries from that list.

http//skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=88962#88962

So this thread is about the question of whether observed traits of the tropical signs (since the time of Alan Leo and Charles Carter) better fit the rulership and exaltation planets of the underlying sidereal signs.

Since Michael specifically cited tropical Taurus and the traits of "persistence and stubbornness," I?ll begin the discussion with charts of those with Aries emphasis known for those traits. (Of course these charts will have the cited planets in tropical Taurus, and anyone is free to explain why Venus and lunar rulership fit the facts of the person?s life.) However, we won?t find any ancient texts that describe the fixed (termed ?solid?) signs as ?persistent and stubborn.?

It would be helpful to reference a few texts for material on planets and signs. I?ve chosen the following:

Teucer of Babylon (TB): An early compiler of Hellenistic astrology, 1st century CE, Teucer?s notes on signs and planets are the most extensive we have to date. This material is included in the Appendix in James H. Holden?s Rhetorius the Egyptian (AFA 2009).

Abu?Ma?shar?s (b. 787 CE) (ABM): ?Great Introduction to the Science of the Stars,? included in Dr. Benjamin Dykes? Introductions to Traditional Astrology: Abu Ma?shar and al-Qabisi (Cazimi Press, 2010) This material is an excellent summary of Hellenistic methods and concepts dating from 100 BCE.)

William Lilly (WL), Christian Astrology, Books 1 and 2, (Astrology Classics 2004) This is an interesting comparison of how concepts have survived from Hellenistic times to the year of the publication of Lilly?s book (1647 CE)

Michel and Francoise Gauquelin (MFG); The most pristine detailed research work on the planets to date has been by these two fine researchers. Planetary traits are taken from two books: Michel Gauquelin?s Your Personality and the Planets (Stein and Day, 1980) and Francoise Gauquelin?s The Psychology of the Planets (Para Research Inc., 1982)

Since Michael Sternbach specifically mentioned ?persistence and stubbornness," I checked the above sources for similar traits under Mars:

TB: indomitable (this trait references nocturnal births, i.e. a potent Mars)
ABM: endurance, persistence
WL: immovable, invincible
MFG: indomitable, obstinate, perseveres, solid, resolute, self-willed, stubborn, tenacious

One could say there is a general ?fixed? quality to these terms, a quality noted in tropical Taurus, but not in Venus, the lord of Taurus nor in the Moon which is exalted in Taurus. Taking planetary symbolism into consideration, Taurus should be a ?feminine? sign.

(Natal charts in following post.)

The first Aries chart belongs to race car champion, Dale Earnhardt (ADB, BC in hand). Known as ?the Intimidator? due to being a relentless hard-charging driver with a reputation of refusing to give up. Pluton?s wealth symbolism (Pluto as possible co-inhabitant planet for Aries) comes through in Dale?s life in the exalted Sun. His earnings totaled over $300,000,000 in U.S. dollars, and he lived in luxury with a beautiful home and private jet.
The ascendant is Leo in both the tropical and sidereal chart. Ascendant lord Sun is placed in sidereal Aries with Mars and Mercury. A Mars-ruled sign for Dale?s race driving career is much more suitable than a sign ruled by Venus who is friends with the exalted Moon. Sidereal Aries is one of the signs I call ?totally male.? There is no female planetary influence linked to Aries, either through sign rulership or triplicity lordship.

Pluto?s death motif is appropriate for Dale?s life. His life ended at the Daytona 500 when his car smashed into a concrete wall at 180 mph. He suffered blunt force injuries to his head. (Aries rules the head.)

The next chart belongs to Terry Fox, Canadian athlete, whose transcontinental run helped raise more than $24 million for cancer research. Fox undertook the run, called the Marathon of Hope, after losing much of his right leg to bone cancer. Terry was strong, wilful and stubborn. It was a journey that Canadians never forgot and people everywhere watched the news for Terry?s daily progress, cheering him on.

They wept as he ran by, fists clenched, eyes focused on the road ahead...the set of his jaw, unflinching, without compromise. He had been running for 143 days and had covered 5373 km (3339 mi). Before he flew back to BC for treatment Terry said, "I?m going to do my very best. I?ll fight. I promise I won?t give up." (All quotes from ADB.)
The Aries emphasis in Terry?s birth chart comes from Mars in Aries at the M.C. in partile square to the ascendant lord, Sun in the 12th house. Mars is also trine the Moon in Sagittarius within 5 degrees.

Other charts with a Leo ascendant and Sun, Mars and Mercury in Aries:
(similar to Dale Earnhardt). It?s easy to see the Mars rulership in these charts.

Lebanon: Terrorist bombing of the U.S. Embassy

Jeffrey Burgess: American military death, this US Marine Corps Lance Corporal was killed in Iraq March 25, 2004 when his vehicle ran over an explosive device near Fallujah.

Christian Tarin: Belgian race car driver, the co-pilot of Jacky Ickx. Tarin was killed when his car caught fire 10/15/1991, 6:45 AM MET, Clamart, France.

Alfred Kastler: French nuclear physicist who discovered and developed the methods for observing Hertzian Resonances in atoms. Kastler was honored with the Nobel Prize in 1966: he was opposed to the atom bomb.

The point I am trying to make with these charts is that the traits of persistence and stubbornness and fiery deaths better match the symbolism of Mars in Aries rather than Venus-ruled Taurus. The psychological traits are the same in either case.

Therese wrote:

As a matter of fact I?m on firm footing here. The Gauquelins found the terms ?resolute, self-willed, stubborn and tenacious? to be associated with Mars, and as we know, traditionally Mars has been associated with Aries. But I can do better than that. AstroDatabank has several individuals under the category of ?Stubborn/steadfast.? I?ll give you some chart illustrations for sidereal Aries from that list.

Concerning the Gauquelin's terms for Mars, I would say that ?resolute? and ?self-willed? describe his astrological attributes well. I would suggest that ?stubborn? and ?tenacious? are applicable more in a short term sense - less so in the sense of patient sustained effort (unless Mars gets supported by other factors).

This in fact translates quite well to Mars' domicile Aries, which is also known rather for his capability of quick and strong action than for his endurance. All in all, Aries is a sprinter rather than a marathon runner.

Of your classical references above, only Abu?Ma?shar seems to provide keywords suggesting Mars' talent for sustained effort.

On the other hand, being ?immovable? and ?invincible? is not necessarily indicating persistence.

For example, I personally know martial artists who don't have that much physical endurance but are quite immovable and invincible in the sense that they are usually able to take care of opponents in a quick decisive outburst of energy. If an altercation would continue for a while, they would run out of breath and could be beaten, but most of the time, they don't need much endurance. - And that's the way of Mars!

I thought you are attributing Pluto to Aries as ruler, though?

In regard of the Gauquelins' research, I observe that it does not even support all of classical astrology's basic assumptions. It goes without saying that statistical research is a very tricky issue, especially regarding psychological matters where even definition of terms is often difficult.

The Gauquelins are thought-provoking, nevertheless, but I would never grant the same degree of credibility and reliability to a particular statistical study like I do to classical or modern astrology's empirically most tested teachings.

Further, Tropical Taurus has an inclination toward contentment hardly reminiscent of Mars. Surely, Taurus personalities can loose their temper badly under certain circumstances, but in my experience, they generally don't have the belligerence typical of Mars or Tropical Aries.

In my understanding, for supporting the notion of a planet having its domicile in a certain sign, that planet's most outstanding characteristics need to be reflected in the supposedly corresponding sign in a more obvious way.

I am quite occupied with other things at the moment, so I will look at and comment about your sample charts insofar my time allows me to.

Michael wrote:

I thought you are attributing Pluto to Aries as ruler, though?

Pluto is a suggested co-inhabitant of Aries. Later on it may become a primary ruler, but at present Mars, the traditional ruler, holds sway. I do see how the mythology surrounding Pluto seems to be reflected in sidereal Aries, however.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

In regard of the Gauquelins' research, I observe that it does not even support all of classical astrology's basic assumptions. It goes without saying that statistical research is a very tricky issue, especially regarding psychological matters where even definition of terms is often difficult.

Statistical research a very tricky issue?, Oh man that is an understatement and one of the all pervading issues about distortions in human behavior research coming out of the 20th century world. A lot of folks seem to forget his research was contained to selected European countries in 1960s. I'm not discrediting his research, not at all, and its a pointer in the right direction, but I don't, for one minute think its representative of populations in other geographical parts of the world.
I wonder how the results would look if his statistical methodology was applied in African, Asian, or even South American populations for example??
Then we have the BIG issue of how professionally trained psychologists can and do subscribe to different schools of thought eg. Freudian, Jungian, Maslow, etc..

Therese Hamilton wrote:Michael wrote:

I thought you are attributing Pluto to Aries as ruler, though?

Pluto is a suggested co-inhabitant of Aries. Later on it may become a primary ruler, but at present Mars, the traditional ruler, holds sway. I do see how the mythology surrounding Pluto seems to be reflected in sidereal Aries, however.

Yeah, that's how the late Dane Rudhyar saw it too. He thought it made logical sense to allocate Pluto as ruler of Aries.

Rod wrote:

Yeah, that's how the late Dane Rudhyar saw it too. He thought it made logical sense to allocate Pluto as ruler of Aries.

Rod,

Do you have a reference for this?

Thanks
Michael

On another thread Konrad wrote:

I think the point is, Therese, that the only thing you are demonstrating with your examples is why you believe in a certain principle. When we all look at charts in such a diverse way, using hand-picked examples really proves nothing other than, again, why we believe what we believe. You know that I do support your practical approach though, there is too much theory and 'he said, she said' and not enough demonstration, in my mind.

I replied:
Konrad, I don't agree that examples prove nothing other than what someone believes. It's possible to demonstrate more than that in a concrete sense, if only by comparisons.

Glimmerings of Themes of Sidereal Signs:

This post will be a little long because I?m comparing the placement of the ascendant lord in three different signs (Aries, Taurus, Gemini) along with Mercury and Mars as a followup on Dale Earnhardt?s placements. Do we find different types of people or different life themes depending on the sign placement of the ascendant lord with Mercury and Mars? This question is a little easier to explore with a Leo ascendant since the Sun is said to be an important key to the birth chart.

All the charts are from ADB 4 which is installed on my computer. There are two categories I generally delete from searches: homosexuals and astrologers. This is because both groups are so large within ADB that any search will call up charts in these categories. Both these categories need to be studied as individual groups.. I also delete special categories such as SIDS or suicides. These are again groups that need their own research, and don?t specifically relate to signs such. Also entertainment professions tend to show up for all signs. All charts below have LEO ascendants

ARIES: Sun, Mars, Mercury in Aries (complete ADB files)
Possible themes may be related to Mars (domicile lord); Sun (exalted planet and triplicity lord); Jupiter (triplicity lord) Exalted Sun for status?

Alba, Jessica American actress whose film and television career skyrocketed in the late 1990s. (Jupiter = enteratinment)

Burgess, Jeffrey American military death, this US Marine Corps Lance Corporal was killed in Iraq March 25, 2004 when his vehicle ran over an explosive device near Fallujah (Mars)

Earnhardt, Dale American race-car champion (Mars)

Judd, Ashley American actress who spent much of the early 1990s in supporting roles while gaining industry respect and a huge fan following. During the latter half of the decade, Judd became one of the most in-demand actresses in Hollywood, (Jupiter, exalted Sun?) She...enjoys running, rock climbing and mountain hiking to stay in shape. (Mars)

Kastler, Alfred French nuclear physicist who discovered and developed the methods for observing Hertzian Resonances in atoms. Kastler was honored with the Nobel Prize in 1966he was opposed to the atom bomb. (Mars = nuclear?) (Nobel prize = exalted Sun)

Orbison, Roy American singer and rock and roll songwriter with an original style and stunning tenor voice that earned him the name "The Caruso of Rock.? (Jupiter = entertainment)

Tarin, Christian Belgian race car driver, the co-pilot of Jacky Ickx. Tarin was killed when his car caught fire 10/15/1991 (Mars)

Terrorist Bombing Lebanon LebanonTerrorist bombing of the U.S. Embassy. (Mars)

TAURUS: Sun, Mars, Mercury in Taurus (complete ADB files)
Possible themes may be related to Venus (domicile and triplicity lord); Moon (exalted planet and triplicity lord); a share for Mercury as per Dorotheus

Anderson, David Fyfe Scottish physician, the Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the University of Glasgow, 1946. (Venus)

Budd, Harold (1936) American musician and avant-garde composer. A modern poet of the piano (Venus)

Kerkorian, Kirk American entrepreneur and former aviator, billionaire owner of the world's largest hotel, MGM Grand in Las Vegas, Nevada and part owner of Chrysler Corporation. (Hotels = Venus) (Chrysler (cars) = Venus) Kerkorian has Jupiter as part of his Taurus stellium which can be related to wealth. The only Venus links here are hotels and vehicles.

Lomax, Eric Scottish writer, author (Moon = writers as per Gauquelin; Venus = any artistic skill)

Attorney 44597 Croatian lawyer (mental occupation, but no specific Moon or Venus connection)

Accident: Mall Explosion Brazilian gas explosion in a shopping mall that resulted in many deaths. (No correlation except malls for shopping = Venus)

The Taurus group is small, but decidedly different than the Aries group except for the mall explosion. Taurus occupations tend to be ?gentlemanly? (Venus) and intellectual, often requiring advanced education. (This is why tropical Gemini seems like such a good fit for mental occupations.)

GEMINI: Sun, Mercury Mars in Gemini (complete ADB files)
Possible themes may be related to Mercury, domicile and triplicity lord; Saturn, triplicity lord; (Venus as lord of Libra of the same triplicity?)
When we place Mars in Gemini, we have some unfortunate results as Mars rules the 6th sign from Gemini (Scorpio).

Cal?, Gerry Italian comedian, singer and actor who formed the pop-group "Jerry Sound" in 1966. Cala was hospitalized for several months after being severely injured in a car accident, 2/05/1994. (Entertainment correlation?? Mars in Gemini = serious accident)

Dieuleveult, Philippe de French TV host, well known and popular. He and his TV crew made an expedition to Africa to film conditions in Zaire...Author Okito Bene Bene published his book, "Africa Raft," in 1994, in which he revealed that the expedition members had been mistaken for a terrorist commando. They had been kidnapped and tortured by the Zaire secret services. Once they realized their mistake, on 8/09/1985 they shot all the expedition members in the head to get rid of all evidence. (TV hosting, travel = Mercury; Mars in Gemini = misfortune)

Galante, Joseph American ecclesiastic, a Roman Catholic Bishop (no obvious Gemini correlation)

Genoni, Gianluca Italian scuba-diver who set a world record of diving 121 meters without any breathing apparatus, 10/02/1998. (This is the sporting connection to Mercury as per the mythology of the Gemini twins. Also [proposed] Neptune?s exaltation In Gemini = sea connection)

Haidl, Gregory Scott American skateboarder with a corporate sponsorship who was arrested and tried for his part in gang-raping an unconscious teenage girl on July 5, 2002. Haidl had videotaped the incident. On December 4, 2004, he was subdued in jail with a taser gun for a termper tantrum that included a threat of suicide. Imprisoned, he pent time in a mental ward. (Skateboarding = Mercury; rape, imprisonment = Mars, 6th from Gemini)

Overmyer, Robert American astronaut, a colonel in the U.S. military and the pilot commander of the last successful space shuttle, "Challenger." He died on 3/22/1996 at 1230 PM CST when the small prototype plane he was testing for a private corporation crashed in Duluth, MN. (Astronaut = Mercury; plane accident and death = Mars in Mercury ruled Gemini)

In other sign research I?ve done Gemini is often related to sports which correlates with the mythology of the Gemini twins. Ruling the hands and arms, sidereal Gemini is more sporting and ?hands on? than intellectual as such. (Sidereal Virgo is the intellectual sign for Mercury.)

This type of small project I?m attempting here is only beginning to suggest glimmerings of possible themes of the signs. The most interesting result when comparing Aries, Taurus and Gemini is the difference in the biographical data for the three signs. It?s an objective study in that the charts were chosen by a software program and not hand-picked in an attempt to prove a concept. As astrologers we would have to complete many small research projects before we might be able to securely point to themes for each sign of the zodiac.

Therese Hamilton wrote:On another thread Konrad wrote:

I think the point is, Therese, that the only thing you are demonstrating with your examples is why you believe in a certain principle. When we all look at charts in such a diverse way, using hand-picked examples really proves nothing other than, again, why we believe what we believe. You know that I do support your practical approach though, there is too much theory and 'he said, she said' and not enough demonstration, in my mind.

I replied:
Konrad, I don't agree that examples prove nothing other than what someone believes. It's possible to demonstrate more than that in a concrete sense, if only by comparisons.

I'll edit this post a little later with examples that support the placement of Sun, Mercury and Mars in various signs of the zodiac. This post is a place setting to keep the topic as close as possible to the original post.

Therese, before you post any more examples, I would like to clarify what I meant with the charts you posted earlier.

The chart of Dale Earnhardt above. You seem to be reading his career, wealth and death all from the ASC lord. This doesn't prove your assertion that the Sidereal zodiac is correct, but only shows why you have come to the conclusion that the ASC lord should be read to see all of these life-topics while using the Krishnamurti measurement. Personally, I wouldn't look at the chart the way you have, and if I did look at it the way I have taught myself to do so using your principles of rulership and your chosen measurement, I wouldn't see the life of Earnhardt as it happened. Is my approach wrong, or yours only coherent with the system you have chosen to use?

Konrad, this topic was originally started as a spin-off from Michael's comment that on my web site I cited sidereal Aries as reflecting the Martian traits of persistence and stubbornness and had "twisted reality like a pretzel in support of preconceived assumptions." Michael added: "...you are using these traits as a major argument in support of your theory of Mars being the ruler of tropical Taurus (which is sidereal Aries in disguise)."

So I considered ways to demonstrate that it was indeed possible that birth charts of individuals with Aries planets displayed those traits. Dale Earnhardt came to mind as a perfect example of such a person and whose life also had a strong Martian emphasis in general (car racing). My point being that if Earnhardt's Sun, Mercury and Mars were in Taurus, then Venus and/or the Moon should show up in some way in his life.

The comments on Pluto were an afterthought, and really don't relate to the central question. Neither is this topic a question of how to read the birth chart overall.

Then I went to the "Persistent/Stubborn" file in ADB 4 (on my computer), which described athlete (Mars) Terry Fox's life. Then I considered, "If there are other charts with Leo rising and the same complex of planets in Aries as Dale Earnhardt, those charts should also have a Martian emphasis. There were only a small number of charts with that configuration (10, I think), and I posted many of them.

I can go back and list all the charts with Leo rising and Sun, Mars and Mercury in Aries, and then I plan to take the same ascendant (Leo) and list all the charts with those three planets in sidereal Taurus. If there is a difference in the two groups of charts (and subsequent lists in other signs), doesn't that begin to suggest a basic difference between signs of the zodiac?

Have I answered your question?

Hello Therese,

Our subject is a little complex, so for the sake of our readers, let me first summarize:

You are replacing the tropical zodiac with a sidereal zodiac, using Krishnamurti's ayanamsa. You don't reject the characteristics of the tropical signs per se as understood in astrology but you deduce these meanings from their ?underlying? sidereal signs.

Therefore it is not possible to empirically decide which zodiac is the more correct one by looking at the planets in signs alone as expressed in a native's life, because the interpretation would be almost the same in either case. (Other for planets in the small zone of overlap.)

What would differentiate the two types of signs in practical terms, however, is their rulers. If a planet would be i.e. in Tropical Taurus, according to you, it would really be in Sidereal Aries and therefore be ruled by Mars rather than by Venus.

For a chart example, could we agree on somebody we are both familiar with?

Let's look at the natal chart of Edgar Cayce.

As an aside, I find this quite apt not least because it was one of Cayce's reading which inspired you to revise the zodiac in the first place (as far as I know).

We start with Edgar's chart in tropical format.
Here Taurus is extremely prominent, being at the MC and having the Moon in it, besides Neptune and Pluto. No doubt, this sign's ruler (whatever it may be) will be of great influence in the Native's life.

Taurus' ruler Venus is in quite a significant position herself. She is in an angular house and in her exaltation in Pisces. Furthermore, she is in a stellium with Mercury, Saturn and the Ascending Node. The Sun is in Pisces, too.

This emphasis on Pisces would seem strongly in line with Cayce being so clearly a proponent of Christo-centric spirituality - as evident from his biography as well as from so many readings he gave, as far as their content as well as their ?Biblical? language.

Talking more specifically about Venus in Pisces, Cayce was emphasizing Love as understood in a Christian framework. In fact, he thought of his psychic activity as an expression of such. He was endeavouring to guide and heal people by his channelled advice, in accordance with his emphasis on the importance of universal Love.

Venus and Neptune in mutual reception (in the tropical wheel) highlight this nicely.

A few quotes may further illustrate how Cayce would seem to be inspired by his Venus in Pisces in his philosophy of life:

Source: http://www.miraclesandinspiration.com/e ... uotes.html

Tips for a long life: Keep sweet, keep friendly, keep loving, if ye would keep young.

The purpose of the heart is to know yourself to be yourself and yet one with God.

Esoterically, Christianity is seen as belonging to Pisces, and Jesus Christ is widely understood to be the avatar of the Pisces age. Pay attention to the fact that this symbolism is referring to the precession of the zodiac, so it sidereally based.


Ok, now to sidereal Cayce.
Since Astrodienst doesn't offer the Krishnamurti ayanamsa you use, I chose Lahiri which, I think, is close enough an approximation for our purposes here.

Now, the MC, the Moon, and Neptune are all in sidereal Aries, which makes Mars their ruler.



Sorry, I really tried, but I can't talk about what I don't see.

Having read a number of books about Cayce, Mars doesn't seem to play a prominent role in the ?sleeping prophet's? life.

Here is another quote from aforesaid collection:

The conquering of self is truly greater than were one to conquer many worlds.

Does this sound like a ?Martian??

Of all the former Pisces placements, only the Sun still falls into this sign, in a succedent house, and he is not particularly well connected by aspects, either.

My further research on Aries, Taurus, and Gemini is posted above (May 3) before this Cayce interruption occurred. That's why I saved a place setting for that post, to keep it as close as possible to the original two posts which began this topic.