Skyscript Astrology Forum

I am wondering about the traditional technique for determining the Lord of the year in a return chart when you have either Leo or Cancer rising that year in the annual profection? The issue seems especially relevant when you have a Leo rising profectional year since it will obviously mean the focus would go to the SR Sun.

I seem to remember Ben Dykes stating the Perso-Arabs had a special rule for this but I am away from my books this week and need an answer asap!

Could someone out there help?

Thanks

Mark

Yes, I can help:

Masha'allah:

Finally, if the Sun and the Moon would take up the turn as the salkhudhay, the matter encourages [you] to attend to the signs of each and their lords, what their partnership is with the fortunate ones or the malevolents from the coming-together or a regard, so that one may permitted to observe a certain path of the judgment according to the nature of the signs, starsand the bearing of the regard (PN1, Dykes, p196)

From Ben Dykes' intorduction to On Solar Revolutions:

Sun

• Domicile lord of the directed Hyleg
  A planet configured with the Sun
  The Distributor
  The sign the luminary is in
  Domicile lord of the luminary

Moon

• Domicile lord of the directed Hyleg
  A planet conjoined to the Moon
  The distributor
  The sign of the luminary
  Domicile lord ofthe luminary
  A planet in Cancer at either the nativity or the revolution
  The sign the Moon is transiting in the revolution and its lord

I agree with Dykes that we should still consider the condition of the luminary in both times when it is lord of the profected ASC.

I understand that this is important because in the SR, the Sun always returns to the same sign and degree, but is it important to determine the lord of the year using the SR? I thought the profection lord can be used?

Konrad wrote:

From Ben Dykes' intorduction to On Solar Revolutions:

Sun
Domicile lord of the directed Hyleg
A planet configured with the Sun
The Distributor
The sign the luminary is in
Domicile lord of the luminary

Moon
Domicile lord of the directed Hyleg
A planet conjoined to the Moon
The distributor
The sign of the luminary
Domicile lord of the luminary
A planet in Cancer at either the nativity or the revolution
The sign the Moon is transiting in the revolution and its lord

I agree with Dykes that we should still consider the condition of the luminary in both times when it is lord of the profected ASC

Thanks Konrad

So all we need is consensus on working out the hyleg!

When they say planet conjoined to the luminary are we considering the profection, SR or natal chart? Same question regarding the sign and domicile lord of the luminary.

In regards the distributer I assume we are discussing the bound lord of the directed Hyleg?

Thanks

Mark

Larxene wrote:

I understand that this is important because in the SR, the Sun always returns to the same sign and degree, but is it important to determine the lord of the year using the SR? I thought the profection lord can be used?

Yes but what if your annual profection has the sign of Leo on the cusp? So the Sun would be the Lord of the year. The Solar return Sun will obviously be in the same position as at the radix. As I recall the Perso-Arabs had some issues about simply using a luminary as lord of the year in a SR chart.

I don't have that much experience in this area so I am certainly not following this idea blindly. I am still looking at the luminaries as potential Lords of the Year in SR charts too.

Mark

Mark wrote: Yes but what if your annual profection has the sign of Leo on the cusp? So the Sun would be the Lord of the year. The Solar return Sun will obviously be in the same position as at the radix. As I recall the Perso-Arabs had some issues about simply using a luminary as lord of the year in a SR chart.

I don't have that much experience in this area so I am certainly not following this idea blindly. I am still looking at the luminaries as potential Lords of the Year in SR charts too.

Mark

Mark

In the solar return, the Sun will likely be in a different house and making different aspects than in the radix.

Also don't forget that any other planets which are in Leo can take rulership of the year as can anything transitting.

Whenever I use profections with Cancer or Leo I pay more attention to other planets in Leo and Cancer, and any natal aspects which tend to come to the fore. I also think the house that the luminary is in, is quite important as well as the house theme in general. For example during my 9th place profection year ruled by the Moon, I finished university and had to move in with my mother (My moon is in the fourth house). THis is notable for me as I had not lived with my mother since I was 10 - my parents divorced when I was younger and I lived with my father but saw my mother regularly.

Mark wrote:When they say planet conjoined to the luminary are we considering the profection, SR or natal chart? Same question regarding the sign and domicile lord of the luminary.

They aren't clear on that. Presumably in either time. Personally, I find the whole thing a bit convoluted and just use the luminary as lord of the year, following its transits and the transits to it concurrently with monthly profections to time events. In other words, Iuse them just like any other planet.

In regards the distributer I assume we are discussing the bound lord of the directed Hyleg?

Yes, though by Omar they were using the directed ASC whether it was Hyleg or not.

we had a similar conversation here -
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 21&start=0

here is a quote from the above thread.

Book 3 of Persian Nativities 'On The Solar Revolutions' page 25 I quote -

"Alternative Lords of the Year. Abu Ma'shar does also allow for three exceptions in choosing the Lord of the Year: the first has to do with the profected Ascendant or the calculated Ascendant of the year falling on a natal planet; the other two come into play if the Sun or Moon are Lords of the Year.

If the Ascendant of the solar revolution, or the sign of the profection, fall on a natal planet, then that malefic can be taken as a substitute Lord of the Year. Abu Ma'shar adds that this will be especially so if the normally aspected Lord of the Year or Lord of the Ascendant of the revolution does not aspect its own Lord, but to my mind this should read, "especially if it does not aspect its own domicile." At any rate, I have my doubts about the value of this rule: surely it would mean that we would have substitute Lords of the Year or of the Ascendant of the year bout half the time. It probably means we may observe the aspects and transits of such a planet,, not that it should actually be preferred as the Lord of the Year.

Now we come to some more difficult rules, if a luminary is the Lord of the Year: this will be the case whenever the profected Ascendant falls on Cancer or Leo. The difficulty lies not only in the fact that the texts leave us with competing options, but Abu Ma'shar nevertheless provides delineations of the Sun and Moon as Lords of the Year, and in two places say that while the luminary should not be the principal Lord of the Year, but should be taken as secondary. The notion that luminaries cannot act as sole or primary Lords of the Year does go back at least to al-Andarzaghar, since Masha'allah states this clearly in BA 1V.7. But Abu Ma'shar and Masha'allah do not completely agree on what the alternatives are, and Masha'allah does not state that the luminary can be a secondary significator."

Thanks very much James,

I was sure I heard Ben Dykes raising the ambiguity over this issue amongst Perso-Arabic sources at his recent workshop in Edinburgh so its good to see I wasn't just imagining this!

As Konrad said the alternatives to using the luminaries look both convoluted and conflicting so I plan to work with the Sun and Moon for now. Paul made some practical suggestions above to consider. I suppose a prominent planet in the radix of the relevant sign of a luminary might be something to look at too. I have always meant to go further into Valens on profections and this issue has encouraged me to do so.

Mark

Paul wrote:

Also don't forget that any other planets which are in Leo can take rulership of the year as can anything transitting.

Very interesting. Could you elaborate on this Paul?

Mark

mark, astrojin says some interesting things in this thread as well that you might like to consider.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

pauls idea is much like the idea of looking for a lead planet other then the sun and moon when leo or cancer are in the ascendant for the profected year. it makes sense to use a planet that lands on the same degree of the profected ascendant if that were to happen as well.. on top of this, my read on astrojins comments suggest the solar return is considered more relevant in certain schools of astrology.. my quick read on martin ganstens views is that the primary directions hold the most relevance.. astrologers have a couple of ways to consider or decide here and i don't know if there is any one way that is considered better then another - just different..

Mark wrote:Paul wrote:

Also don't forget that any other planets which are in Leo can take rulership of the year as can anything transitting.

Very interesting. Could you elaborate on this Paul?

Mark

In other words notice that when the profection comes to the Leo/Cancer, observe that the lord of the year is the Sun/Moon, but that any planet positioned within Leo/Caner will also take on the mantle of Lord of the Year in the sense that the profection hands over to that planet. In addition, the Sun (for example) will be positioned in a given sign natally, its configurations with other planets, as well as the dispositor, should also be noted and worked into your thinking - paying attention to whether they are malefic/benefic and of dignity etc.

I'm afraid I don't have time to go sourcing texts, so here's just a snippet, trying to be brief. Reading "salkhudhay" as the profected lord of the year:

Persian Nativities Volume 1, Ben Dykes, pg 196 (MashaAllah's Book of Aristotle):

Finally if the Sun and Moon would take up the turn as the salkhudhay, the matter encourages [you] to attend to the signs of each and their Lords, what their partnership is with the fortunate ones or the malevolents from the coming-together or a regard, so that one may be permitted to observe a certain path of judgement according to the nature of the signs, stars and their bearing of the regard

I can't find full quotes from Valens (particular Book IV, chapter 11), so to summarise the view, just generally, if the profection comes to an empty sign, the lord of the sign takes on the lord of the year. So if Leo is untenanted then the Sun is chiefly the lord of the year. Planets which transit the sign, then become a lord of the year, as the sun hands over to them.

Riley pg 78

To find the overall influence in any nativity, it will be necessary to count the years from the sun, the moon, and the Ascendant, and if the count ends at an empty place, then they <sun> will be transmitting to the rulers of these <empty> signs. These three figures have great influence, whether the transmission is to benefics, to malefics, to the angles or operative places, or to places not at the angles.
Next it will be necessary to investigate the transmissions of the other stars: if malefics control the year, but the three aphetas have a benefic effect, then the year will be vigorous and distinguished, after some doubt, anxiety, and annoyance. If no star transmits to another, and if the distribution is to empty places, then it is necessary to note the empty places: especially if any stars are there in transit, they will receive the distribution.

But then if there is a planet tenanting the sign, then we can hand over to that planet. I'll find a quote from Valens if possible, it's late at the moment so this is as much as I can post tonight.

Just to complicate matters, we ought to perfect from the luminary of sect in any case, so chances are in every solar revolution we should be paying attention to the luminary in sect (and profecting from it to see to where it lands and hands over).


But to be just simpler about it, check the house that the sun (for example) is in, both natally and in the solar return, then the aspects it makes, as well as the dispositor. Then also recognise as time lords, the planets within leo, that the profection from the ascendant would hand over to and any transitting planets if Leo is empty (personally I've noticed this is important either way). Obviously this isn't complete or exhaustive.