Skyscript Astrology Forum

Western-style Astrology and Chinese Bazi - Parallels and Differences

Invited by Michael Sternbach, I open up this thread.

I think this is a big subject to discuss ,welcome opening and freeing discussing :-D

Firstly, I would like to introduce Solar Term which is used in bazi system as its calendar basis and indeed the tropical zodiac system. You can find the parallels and difference between them.

Bazi bases on solar calendar , not lunar calendar!!! Please take care about this point.

The follow quotations which I used are from one of Chinese Classical books. ???????? which is a vast encyclopaedic work written in China during the reigns of the Qing Dynasty and emperors Kangxi and Yongzheng.

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???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

quotation:

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I try to interpret the above the old Chinese language into English.

The Season term is to observe the pass way of the Sun, in order to adjust the time to plow and sow.

The Sun is placed in the middle of the ecliptic, and it moves through the ecliptic. The Sun run a cycle as a circle of the earth. That is called ecliptic. It repeats years and years. Hence ,the Sun is running in the ecliptic, and the direction of this ecliptic is east and west, not south and north.The Moon and the other five planets are running around 12 degrees width of the ecliptic as well. ?We divide up the whole ecliptic four parts and each part has 90 degrees called a quadrant ,and divide up the a quadrant again 6 parts ,consequently, each part has 15 degrees ,called 24 solar terms.

You would doubt ,because it is a Qing Dynasty work, at that time , Chinese culture is much influenced by Western. So let?s to see a more early work , which had been written during Pre-Qin and Han.. Its name is Huainanzi ????? ( a 2nd-century BCE Chinese philosophical classic)

I quote it here :

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It had already established the complete 24 solar terms here . ( Forgive me lazy to translate :-D)

You can find the List of Solar terms in this link . Compare with the absolute longitude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_term

but ,please make a note to which I emphasized previously. Bazi bases on solar calendar , not lunar calendar!!!

Next time I will provide other testimony (from some Bazi works) to support this point.

Enjoy.

Ming

And , Michael , you mentioned : ? I have studied a number of other Chinese esoteric and philosophical systems, to a certain degree. ? I am interested to know which Chinese esoteric and philosophical systems you have studied :-D

Secondly, how to set up the Month Earthly Branches.

In the four pillars and the heavenly stems and earthly branches ,only the Month Earthly Branches are relation with the Solar movement .

It is different from the 12 animals which indicate the Year Earthly Branches.

Let?s go. referring with List of solar terms :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_term

The first month ( ???? from start of spring to awakening of insects ,that is , including two solar terms ( start of spring and rain water ) , in order to avoid disorder and keep neat, I will follow the latter expressed way.

The second month ( ???: awakening of insects and vernal equinox

The third month (???: clear and bright and grain rain

The fourth month (???? start of summer and grain full

The fifth month(??? : grain in ear and summer solstice

The sixth month???? : minor heat and major heat

The seventh month ????: star of autumn and limit of heat

The eighth month????: white dew and autumnal equinox

The ninth month ????:cold dew and frost descent

The tenth month ????: start of winter and minor snow

The eleventh month???? :major snow and winter solstice

The twelfth month ????:minor cold and major cold

reference :

??????? ?? ???
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??, Ming!

I am sure your name consisting of the Sun (?) and the Moon (?) denotes you as being exactly the right person to enlighten us on this topic!

The 24 Solar Terms are of particular relevance to me. Not long ago, I have pursued the concept of a zodiac divided into 24 sectors in other traditions on these two threads:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8117
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8248

Regarding your fascinating presentation, what I wonder about:

How are the Solar Terms used in delineation of a horoscope chart? Are they relevant only in relation to the Sun, or also to the Moon, and to the planets?

Are two Solar Terms together considered to constitute not only a month but also a zodiacal ?sign??

Do the Solar Terms and/or signs belong to the five elements, or to any other such system? Do they belong to the planets?

And , Michael , you mentioned : ? I have studied a number of other Chinese esoteric and philosophical systems, to a certain degree. ? I am interested to know which Chinese esoteric and philosophical systems you have studied :-D

I have some knowledge of Daoism (especially by Lao-tzu, Chuang-tzu, and modern authors like Alan Watts), the I Ching, the Taixuanjing, classical texts on strategy (Sun-tzu, 36 Stratagems), Chinese alchemy/Qigong, Chinese medicine (the meridian system, and herbal medicine, in particular), and Chinese martial arts, especially Taiji.

Sorry, I don't have all the proper characters handy!

Hi, Michael,

I hope my name is ?? but it is ? ?and its meaning is tea .

Very interesting discussing in your providing threads , I should read it carefully .

Concerning your questions.

>>>How are the Solar Terms used in delineation of a horoscope chart? Are they relevant only in relation to the Sun, or also to the Moon, and to the planets?

Michael , I try to put planets into bazi system ,however It is not successful , because I can not find out exact planets motion in bazi system except the Sun. Some Chinese learners consider the date of the first year or begin of ?? ? the sexagenary cycle ) relevance to a kind of special astronomical observation , but I have no idea what is the special astronomical phenomenon yet.

>>>Are two Solar Terms together considered to constitute not only a month but also a zodiacal ?sign??

Yes, a particular month or division in bazi system which is not begin on 1st May 2014 (western calendar) or 1st day of lunar calendar as well.

You can consider them as 12 Zodiacal Sign but it isn?t the one you have been familiar with named Chinese 12 animals .

The date of 24 solar term begin and end is not the same or fixed in Western calendar every year. So you should check the Chinese perpetual calendar from time to time.

I think it is easy understanding ,because our astrology solar ingress day or each zodiacal sign beginning day is also not the same in western calendar every year .

>>>Do the Solar Terms and/or signs belong to the five elements, or to any other such system? Do they belong to the planets?

Yes. They belong to the five elements. I have no idea whether they belong to the planets , as I said previously , I have not associated planets with bazi successfully yet.

And I have to say what I can help you only some very brief basic conception of bazi , since I am not an expert in this area. To study any subject would cost much time and energy. It is not easy to understand a subject from A to Z ?haha ..( it reminded me a joke my friend he ever said )

It seems you have much knowledge of Chinese culture and philosophy :-D Great!

Have a nice day.

Ming

Hi Ming!

On the website of the Hong Kong Observatory, I found a graph showing the solar terms together with the signs of the zodiac:

http://www.hko.gov.hk/gts/time/24solarterms.htm

At the moment, the Sun is in the solar term of the "Corn Forms". The Moon and Venus would be in the area of the "Bright and Clear" solar term but it looks like bazi doesn't make this connection.

What does it mean astrologically if the Sun is in the "Corn Forms"?

Another question, in what order do the solar terms belong to the elements?

Please make sure to check out my PM!

Regards,
Michael

Hey Michael, you're 45 years old!? I thought you would be in your 20s or 30s...

Ming Wei, that 24-fold division of the ecliptic reminds me of an Indian astrological technique somehow...I think it's one of the dasas system (i.e. time lord system).

Larxene wrote:

Hey Michael, you're 45 years old!? I thought you would be in your 20s or 30s...

Must be my vegetarian nutrition!

Plus, I try to avoid preconceptions of what is or is not attached to a certain age, necessarily - when looking at others as well as at myself.

And your beliefs will go a long way in creating your personal reality.

Ming Wei, that 24-fold division of the ecliptic reminds me of an Indian astrological technique somehow...I think it's one of the dasas system (i.e. time lord system).

On the two threads linked above, you will find information on different Indian 24-fold divisions of the zodiac. A time lord system, however, was not included, so far!

Larxene and anybody else reading this, share any information you may have on this particular topic, PLEASE! Best on the "Zodiac with 24 sectors - the Vedic side" thread
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8248

Thanks

Michael

Hi,Michael,

Just let you know ,I am too busy these days and there are so many interesting things in my mind when compare Western astrology and Chinese Bazi. :-D

Please allow me some time to write them down.

Have fun

Ming

Hi Ming,

Thanks for the note.

We continue this conversation whenever you are ready!

Have fun, too

Michael

Hi, Michael,

Thank you for your patience,

I read your threads (which were you provided in discussing with other advancers in this forum about solar terms ) very slowly because problems of language and concept .

In order to continue our conversation , It would be helpful to know what you think about or define the five elements, since I could make it clear or discuss with you efficiently after understanding your opinion .

And, Hi Larxene ,

Sorry for not replying your notes in time , and thank you . I am not familiar with Indian astrology , If you would like to expand on it more ? We might check the parallels and differences between it and bazi.

Best Wishes

Ming Wei

Unfortunately, I am no expert in Indian astrology, and I have never studied it (except maybe by accident), so I'll refrain from commenting about it.

When talking about bazi, are we talking about these?

http://bazi.destinyempire.com/
http://bazi-calculator.com/
http://www.fengshui-village.com/en/bazi.php


I have tried one or two of these calculaters a few years ago out of curiosity, but I was kinda confused.

Well, not exactly confused...I just felt that there was not enough information?

Anyway, etymologically, 'bazi' to me means 'eight figures' or 'eight words'. So the eight figures are the basics I suppose.

Hi Ming,

I am not sure if Larxene read your reply to him. Often, we read only the new posts and don't pay attention to older ones getting edited. So it's safer you always make a new post for replying to another forum member. - Thanks.

In order to continue our conversation , It would be helpful to know what you think about or define the five elements, since I could make it clear or discuss with you efficiently after understanding your opinion .

I think, the concept of the five elements is quite similar to the Greek tradition of the four elements which we use in our zodiac (you know, Aries = fire, Taurus = earth, etc.). So I wonder if there is such a relationship between the five elements and the Solar Terms, also.

Further, I know that in Chinese astrology the planets belong to the elements in this fashion:

Mercury = water
Venus = metal
Mars = fire
Jupiter = wood (or wind)
Saturn = earth

In Western astrology, the planets are corresponding with the four elements, too, and in quite a similar manner!

Venus = water
Mars = fire
Jupiter = air
Saturn = earth

Also, could you please tell us if the positions of the Moon and the five planets in the Solar Terms are studied in bazi, or only the position of the Sun.

Cheers,
Michael