Skyscript Astrology Forum

Good day,

The excert below is from Firminus Maternus`Mathesis ,page 52.
Apparently a planet out of sect in an angle would be catastrophic.

"But if the planets which we said rejoice by night are in the important houses or cardinal houses in a diurnal chart, they indicate unending misfortune and constant catastrophe."

Do you know of celebrities or people to whom this applies?

Thanks

Just had a look at celebrities with Moon MC at astrotheme.Plenty are day-born, like Celine Dion or David Beckam,so his theory is based on I don`t know what.

http://www.astrotheme.com/celebrities/moon/m10/1.htm

The ancient did what they could but they didn`t have our means.

Tom wrote:I'm curious and know very little about Firmicus, when he says "houses," does he mean "signs," as in cardinal signs? Or is he talking about the mundane houses or whole sign houses? If he means whole sign houses in which case the sign is the house, does it matter where the cardinal sign is, e.g. does this apply if, say Aries is the 3rd sign?

Hi Tom

Houses.He`s one of the astrologers who seems to use equal house system. I can send you the PDF privately if you wish

Moon on the ascendant in a nocturnal chart, ifshe is full and in signs in which she rejoices, indicates the greatest good fortune. She makes the native advance before his brother, deservedly, at an early age. By day she makes captains of great ships.
2.
But if Mars and Saturn hold any angle when the Moon is on the ascendant, that is, if they are in opposition, square aspect, or conjunction with the Moon, this will make pirates noted for their fierce cruelty and bestiality orjudges in inaccessible places. If no benefic planet is in aspect to this combination the natives will be exposed; no time oflife is predicted. They perish immediately in a violent death.
3.
The Moon in the second house in a nocturnal chart will make the native famous and involved in well-known activities, but luxurious, given to voluptuous pleasures. They gain a greater income over a period of time.
4.
But if she is found in this house by day, she either destroys the parents immediately or divides the native from them, or separates the parents by dissolving the marriage. She also diminishes the inheritance in various kinds ofloss. Some, with the Moon in this house, are involved in constantjourneys and divide their activities among many places. They will be subject to some alien power. lEthe Moon is waning in this house and Saturn is on the degree or in the sign of the ascendant, this indicates blindness from sudden wounds in the eyes. Mars on the degree or the sign oftheascendantwillmake painsin thejoints,also hemorrhagesandother illnesses.
5.
The Moon in the third house will make the native's mother low-class
114 Ancient Astrology
or tainted with some kind of scandal. If she has Jupiter with her in this house the native will be supported on public funds or by the privy purse. Mercury in aspect to this combination will make attendants on some great goddess, or priestsofapowerfulreligion,ormanagersofpublicbusiness. If the Moon is with Venus, this indicates occupations connected with paints, perfumes, wine, or flowers.
6.
Ifthe Moon is found in this house in a nocturnal chart with Saturn, the natives will be sluggish and never reach their goals. They incur the anger of the gods by uttering sacrilegious words. Ifthe Moon is found in this house by day with Mercury and Mars, the natives will be sacrilegious, despoilers of temples, urtiust, impious, and murderers.
7.
If the Moon is in the fourth house, that is, the IMC, by day, the mother will be low-class and be survived by her husband. IfSaturn is on another of the angles and Venus on the descendant, the mother will be taken captive at some time and made a slave. But the full Moon in this house by night will make the mother rich and provide constant increases in income to the native. [Houses five through eight are missing].
8.
The Moon in the ninth house forces some to cultivate rites of the most important religions. Others carryon business for women. But if the Moon is in this house by day, this will make travellers of humbleclass whose lives are disturbed by dangers and difficulties. Some exercise servile or low-class duties in temples, especially if a malefic planet is in aspect to the Moon in this house.
9.
If the Moon is found in the tenth house, that is, on the MC, in a nocturnal chart in signs in which she rejoices or is exalted, ifshe is waxing and protected by a favorable aspect ofJupiter, this will make the greatest emperors and most powerful governors with power of life and death. Also she produces regularly-elected consuls. If she precedes or follows the MC but is nevertheless situated in nearby houses or degrees, she will produce generals, tribunes, and administrators. In general, if the Moon is located in the same sign as the MC, she indicates great power and good fortune. But if in this position she is moving toward Saturn, or ifSaturn is on another angle, this often indicates enmities and misfortunes.
10.
The Moon by day on the MC makes the native mediocre in life and in all occupations. He is cheated in various ways. If the Sun is on the ascendant in his own house or exaltation or in the house ofJupiter, this
will make governors of the most important provinces or states, or proconsuls, much feared in their administration. If Jupiter in this combination protects either the Sun or the Moon or both, this makes most powerful emperors,just and fortunate, universally regarded with terror.
11. The Moon in the eleventh house indicates the same as in th

"But if the planets which we said rejoice by night are in the important houses or cardinal houses in a diurnal chart, they indicate unending misfortune and constant catastrophe."

...IF other important testimonies, which Firmicus doesn't enumerate because they should be self-evident to any knowledgeable astrologer, concur.

Goran

i agree with cor scorpii here.. getting beyond cookie cutter astro is the trick... a malefic out of sect in an angle is always considered a negative.. i am not convinced of this myself, but according to firmicus i could have made a good and cruel pirate with moon on the ascendant and saturn in conjunction - nocturnal chart.. venus on the descendant obviously alters this so i give them their money back afterwards, lol..

james_m wrote:i agree with cor scorpii here.. getting beyond cookie cutter astro is the trick... a malefic out of sect in an angle is always considered a negative.. i am not convinced of this myself, but according to firmicus i could have made a good and cruel pirate with moon on the ascendant and saturn in conjunction - nocturnal chart.. venus on the descendant obviously alters this so i give them their money back afterwards, lol..

Moon is no malefic

Thanks for the info. I"ll print it out and look at it more closely, but back to the original quote:

"But if the planets which we said rejoice by night are in the important houses or cardinal houses in a diurnal chart, they indicate unending misfortune and constant catastrophe."

I noticed the translator used the word "houses" twice: important houses or cardinal houses. I'm guess that "cardinal houses" means "cardinal signs." and "important houses" means "angles." So my guess at a translation might be:

But if the planets which we said rejoice by night are in the angular houses or cardinal signs in a diurnal chart, they indicate unending misfortune and constant catastrophe.

This gives the out-of-sect planet potentially quite a few places to cause mischief. Here is such a chart. [I would have posted the chart, but the service I used to use to share the file is now a pay site. I know there is a free one because I've used it, but I didn't bookmark it and I can't remember it.]

Bobby Fischer
March 9, 1943
2:39 PM CWT
Chicago, IL

Fischer has a diurnal chart with the Moon (nocturnal) in Taurus (nocturnal) and using quadrant houses, in an angle or if we use equal houses the 10th sign. So do we have "unending misfortune and constant catastrophe?" That was probably an exaggeration on Firmicus part, but Fischer's life was rather chaotic even if the chaos was of his own doing (moon rules Cancer, 12th sign, barely intercepted in 12 using Placidus - so at least a co ruler), ruler of the 12th using Equal houses.

Venus, too is conjunct the MC, and therefore angular in a diurnal chart, and in a cardinal sign and Venus rules the Moon. Using equal houses Venus is in 9, but still conjunct the MC. Fischer's relationship with his mother was, to be kind, strained. His father was never part of his life.

Mars the third nocturnal planet is also above the horizon in a dirurnal chart and conjunct the 7th cusp. He's in a wide trine with Saturn, his ruler.

So all three nocturnal planets seem to meet Firmicus' criteria and Fischer's life was a mess despite his reaching the pinnacle of his profession (World Chess Champion). After his success, he quickly became a recluse and his anti-Semitism was so demented that it tended to provoke more pity than outrage. He was a very sick man at the end.

Hi Tom

I think what he means is " the important houses,that is,the cardinal houses"
But I may be wrong

regards

Ivanastrolog wrote:

james_m wrote:i agree with cor scorpii here.. getting beyond cookie cutter astro is the trick... a malefic out of sect in an angle is always considered a negative.. i am not convinced of this myself, but according to firmicus i could have made a good and cruel pirate with moon on the ascendant and saturn in conjunction - nocturnal chart.. venus on the descendant obviously alters this so i give them their money back afterwards, lol..

Moon is no malefic

trick question.. is saturn a malefic and doubly so in this example given above? ps - love the cut and dry dismissive-ness of your response!

Ivanastrolog wrote:

james_m wrote:i agree with cor scorpii here.. getting beyond cookie cutter astro is the trick... a malefic out of sect in an angle is always considered a negative.. i am not convinced of this myself, but according to firmicus i could have made a good and cruel pirate with moon on the ascendant and saturn in conjunction - nocturnal chart.. venus on the descendant obviously alters this so i give them their money back afterwards, lol..

Moon is no malefic

Says who?

There are certain circumstances under which the Moon can be malefic, just like any other star.

Goran

Good day Ivan,


Okay, well, a chart with a planet out of sect on an angle isn't always going to create "catastrophes".

The reasons are complex. First we may have mitigating factors in a chart. A well-placed planet in the 10th, for example, would lessen the negative effects of a planet in the first who is contrary to the sect in favour. Then we also have things like, which cardine is the planet in? Maternus actually ranks the favourability/beneficence/strength of the houses, just as Dorotheus does (though their rankings are slightly different). The 1st/10th are the best houses (the first angles), while the 7th/4th are inferior (called the second angles). The maleficence increases depending on which angle we are talking about, and then also we have to consider where the maleficence manifests. There are some other factors: zodiacal dignities, application and separation, fixed stars, etc.

Another reason has to do with the time factors of the chart. By that I mean that we also need to look at the time lords of all the charts that has a planet contrary to the sect that is on the angles. Everything comes according to its appointed time, and the maleficence may not occur in childhood or youth, if, for example, the planet is in the 7th (significator of old age) and it is not a major time lord in any of the time lords system. So some celebrities who are in their youth or middle age may not experience any problem that would be characteristic with that planet. Even when it is a time lord, if it is well-placed and helped by benefics, again we may not see anything bad happen.

Third (and maybe not the last factor), has to do with the eminence of the nativity. Valens, for example, was of the opinion that for ordinary people, both the good and bad things that happen to them are not very intense. For eminent people, however, the good things that happen are really great, and the bad things are intensified too! I just hope I didn't mis-read it, but it was so peculiar that I probably remembered it correctly. Eminence also has a lot to do with your family/lineage, culture and countries' policies, etc. So if you see a middle-class person's chart and you see Mars on the Ascendant in a morning chart, nah, probably not too big of a problem. Maybe he's a drunkard and likes to pick a fight but aside from that, no big deal. (Unless there are extra afflictions.)

Does Maternus tell us to consider all the different factors in the chart and not just that one factor? Yes. In Bram's translation, he sometimes say something like "but this is according to the computation of the chart". This is what he means: you should look at all the relevant factors (important, don't look at irrelevant influences, only the relevant ones) before deciding whether a particular testimony stands.

I can't quite find the exact quotes, so I'll provide some quotes that more or less show the idea:

For she [Venus] has diverse powers of prediction which are difficult to discover. Just as a creative artist portrays the outline of the limbs with the mixture of his colors, and with his blended paints brings out the definite shape of the body, so the combined influence of the planets and their mutual effect on each other depict the fates of men.

- page 97-98, note 26.

In the fourth house these two [Saturn and Mercury] will produce students or teachers of secret or illegal skills, but wicked, who seek their daily bread from evit arts. Some will be condemned or in prison. All these predictions vary according to the signs and the positions of other planets.

- page 105, note 4.

In all charts we should hope that Venus and Jupiter should be in aspect to Mars in any way from any house. For then the attacks of Mars are weaker, mitigated by the other planets. We should also hope that Mars not hold any angle of the chart by day; for thus located by day he threatens the native in many ways.

- page 87, note 35.


The third quote should be interesting to you. Maternus mentions a mitigating factor, and then he also mentions a factor that would make things worse. So indeed, a malefic contrary to sect on an angle can be bad, but, Maternus says that there are mitigating factors that can lessen the problem.



I hope you can see the importance of considering all relevant factors, and how much work it can be. So no, if one example doesn't work, it doesn't mean the whole technique doesn't work, it usually means that we probably overlooked something.




And yes, a Moon can still be a problem or "malefic", given the right circumstances. For instance, I'm not sure how far you are in Matheseos Libri VIII, but there is a concept about the phases of the Moon. Basically, it says that the waxing Moon is better for diurnal planets, but worse for nocturnal ones, and vice versa. So if the Moon is aspecting (and especially when applying to) a planet, its phase can change the beneficence or maleficence of the effect:

The waxing or full Moon moving from Mars toward Venus makes adulterers, passionate lovers, always troubled by sexual desires and dangerous adventures...

But if the waning Moon is moving from Mars toward Venus, the natives will be successful, blessed, lucky, and rich. They will either seduce women or carry off rich but foreign-born wives and gain fortune from them. Through women they reach high office, especially in a nocturnal chart...

- page 126, note 2-3.

If the waxing or full Moon is moving from Mars toward Jupiter in favorable houses, this predicts leaders of armies, imperial rulers fearsome in every way, rulers of provinces and states. They will be extremely wealthy; easily gain their desires, and are victors in all conflicts.

But if the Moon is waning, the natives will be destined for some kind of public contest and will always have a reputation for respectability. They may be famous soliders with constantly increasing good fortune and frequent opportunities for advancement. Nevertheless they will have hidden afflictions and frequent illness.

- page 127, note 8-9.




Hope this helped.

Larxene Xenohart