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A friend of mine asked for me look into his natal chart. The first thing that I did was to assess his temperament using the method that John Frawley gives in The Real Astrology Applied. I?m not so good at natal astrology so I wanted to run this past the more experienced people on the traditional forum. This question could be difficult for the forum because you all don't know him, though you also can be more objective about the chart.

In short, the Frawley method comes up with a strongly choleric person with a streak of melancholic. Personal experience shows the opposite, a strongly melancholic person with a streak of choleric and perhaps sanguine. This is why I?ve posted this chart.

I asked my friend to go back to check his birth certificate. He did and the date and time we have here is directly from his birth certificate, not from his memory of it.

Here is how I figured his temperament.
1.) The ASC and its Ruler
a. ASC ? Virgo: Cold and Dry. There are no planets in aspect with the ASC but there is a contra antiscia from Mercury, the ASC Ruler. (Yeah, that is interesting.) Being occidental, Mercury is Dry but modified by its Hot and Moist sign Libra it becomes Hot and Slightly Dry. The ASC is therefore Slightly Cold and Very Dry, or C- D+
b. ASC Ruler ? Mercury is feral, with no planets in contact with it. Since Mercury has already been accounted for by being a contra antiscia with the ASC, I can?t see how it can be counted twice.
c. Final: ASC & Ruler are Slightly Cold and Very Dry, or C- D+

2.) The Moon
a. The Moon is in its 2nd quarter is Hot and Dry
b. The Moon is modified by Hot Moist Aquarius, so the Moon is Very Hot and Slightly Dry.
c. The Moon is square the Sun. The Sun is Hot and Dry, modified by its season, Cold and Dry, modified by its Hot and Moist sign of Libra. They combine to make the Sun Very Hot and Dry.
d. The Moon is square Venus. Venus is occidental so Venus is Moist. Venus is in Cold and Moist Scorpio so Venus is Cold and Very Moist.
e. The Moon is conjunct Saturn. Saturn is occidental and so it is Dry. Saturn is in Hot and Moist Aquarius so Saturn is Hot and Slightly Dry.
f. Final: The Moon is Extremely Hot and Very Dry, or H+++ D+

3.) The Sun
a. The Sun in Fall is Cold and Dry but modified by the Hot and Moist sign of Libra, the Sun becomes Slightly Cold and Slightly Dry, or C- D-
b. The Sun is trine the Moon. The Moon is Cold and Moist, but modified by its Hot and Dry phase (2nd quarter), and Hot and Moist sign (Aquarius), the Moon ends up as a Tiny Bit Cold and Moist, or C- - M
c. The Sun is trine Saturn which is Hot and Slightly Dry as we?ve seen, H D-
d. The Sun is square to Mars. Mars is oriental and so it?s Hot and Dry. Modified by its Cold and Moist sign of Cancer it becomes Somewhat Hot and Somewhat Dry, or H- D-
e. Final: The Sun is a Tiny Bit Cold and Dry, C - - D

4.) The Lord of the Geniture
a. I?d have to pick Mercury, which is in its own triplicity and in the 3rd house. It?s not great but the other choices are far worse. Saturn is in its own sign but is retrograde and in the 6th house. Mars is also in its own triplicity and in the favorable 11th house but is in its Fall. The Moon is peregrine but also is in the unfavorable 6th house. The Sun is in its Fall in Libra while both Jupiter and Venus are in their Detriment.
b. Mercury, as we saw above is Hot and Slightly Dry, or H D-

5.) Conclusion
a. ASC and Ruler: C- D+
b. The Moon: H+++ D+
c. The Sun: C - - D
d. Lord of the Geniture: H D-

If you add all four up, you?d get something like H++ D+++. No matter how you add them up it still comes out to predominantly choleric. Taken individually you?d get choleric with a streak of melancholy, though the heat dwarfs the amount of cold in the chart. My problem with this is that anyone who knows him sees him as being primarily melancholic. Even he does.

My take on the guy is that he is melancholic, being very stubborn, quiet and an avid reader. I?ve had him as a tenant in my house twice and though he doesn?t yell, he does seem to always provoke arguments, largely through being obstinate in his habits but being very mercurial in his decisions. He does things his own way and is persistent in some bad living habits. Once I yelled at him, saying that he was apathetic, lazy and inconsiderate, all to do with problems with living with him in the house. Still he?s been a loyal friend and is a quiet, curious non-judgmental companion to go out with: museums, dinners out, ice skating, exploring. He?s also quiet and patient enough to put up with my volcanic temper and tendency to shoot my mouth off. He also bailed me out of jail at 5:00 AM last year.

He?s never been consistent in anything to do with work or a place to live. He goes from one job to another, one living situation to another, one city to another. He decided to move out one day and then asked to stay on after he changes his mind. He will head out on the road for one place and end up in a completely different city.

There?s a mix of stubbornness in him as well along with the inconsistency. In the last few months living here he would stubbornly turn the heat or A/C off to ?meditate in quiet? and then forget to turn in back on again, a dozen or more times. He kept on burning incense in the living room despite my many warnings.

There?s very little anger or yelling, though like I said he does provoke a fair amount of yelling from others. He?s always paid his bills to me.

As a friend, he?s OK but inconsistent. He?s someone who will vanish but will come back again. As a roommate, well I think he?s been kicked out of every place he?s ever lived. Luckily our friendship survived living together.

Something interesting that I?ve noticed is that I?m never sure what he?s going to look like. Before he moved back in I?d see him just once every couple of months. Before answering the door, I?d pause and wonder what he?s going to look like. Once a mutual friend didn?t even recognize him. Sometimes he?s preppy looking, other times like a young child and other times like a shaggy bohemian. (Moon in Aquarius?) I am sure this is the feral Mercury. Underneath it all he?s always very metrosexual, lean almost gaunt and very asexual. I?ll be blunt. I like young guys but he?s the only guy that age who I know who I have zero sexual interest in.

He does seem to take a lot of time on his appearance, though not in the usual sense. He takes forever in the bathroom just to shave. I?ve seen him spend $150 on a single tie though only making minimum wage, and is the rare 20-something who irons and neatly folds his clothing.

He has had a lot of trouble finding a career. He reads of lot of esoteric books about Nordic runes, crystal healings and organic foods. He socializes mostly with very bohemian drops outs at outdoor electronica concerts and of course, takes a fair amount of LSD, moly, and other designer drugs I?m too out of it to recall. Sometimes he seems to think he can make a living fashioning jewelry out of wire and stones. Other times he says he wants to be some sort of LSD guru for hire. Back on planet earth he works as a waiter for a while until he gets tired of it and moves on. I suspect that all of this is that strongly Hot and Dry Aquarian Moon. My Moon also is Aquarius, which is probably our connection.

Not surprisingly with that strong but retrograde Saturn near the cusp of the 6th house, he?s got a lot of serious health problems. He?s got Crohn?s disease already and his mother has Huntington?s Chorea so he has a strong chance of inheriting that as well. He has a very troubled relationship with his father. He?s been in a mental hospital twice though I?m not sure that was needed. He did threaten to kill himself once when he was 17 or so.

I hope this sparks some good discussions on here. I'd like to learn natal more.

Hi there - this is a topic that also interests me. A few observations:

Using the Greenbaum method, this individual is quite strongly melancholic with some sanguine.

Greenbaum
Ascendant sign (2) 2M
Season (2) 2M
Ascendant ruler M
Ascendant almuten M
Moon sign (2) 2S
Moon phase C
Sign of moon's ruler S
Sanguine 3
Choleric 1
Melancholic 6
Phlegmatic 0

A variation on this type of approach is published at http://magnumopusastrology.com/temperam ... ort-method. The author claims to have derived this from William Lilly's methodology.

This approach gives a more even balance between melancholy and sanguine.

Ascendant sign (2) 2M
Ascendant ruler M
Ascendant ruler sign S
Moon sign (2) 2S
Moon dispositor sign S
Moon phase C
Season (2) 2M
Sanguine 4
Choleric 1
Melancholic 5
Phlegmatic 0

In both methods I am taking Mercury occ. as Cold and Dry. If oriental I would take it as Hot and Dry.

I have been experimenting with my own method (still in development). This gives:

Temperament
Birth Season 3M Autumn
Ascendant Sign 3M Virgo
Sign of Ascendant's Ruler 2S Libra
Planet Aspecting Ascendant 2M 2S Mercury occ. In Libra
Ascendant Almuten 2M Mercury occ.
Moon Sign 3S Aquarius
Moon Phase 3C Second quarter
Sign of Moon's Ruler 2S Aquarius
Planet Aspecting Moon 4P Venus occ. In Scorpio
Moon's Almuten 2M Saturn
Totals 28 9S 3C 12M 4P

This method is in part derived from Greenbaum and in part from work in On the Heavenly Spheres (Avelar and Ribeiro). The factors are weighted according to their relative importance in forming the temperament judgement.

You will see that all three methods tend towards melancholy with an admixture of sanguine. Choleric and phlegmatic do not really figure in the judgement.

The overt melancholy may in large measure be due to the Moon-Saturn conjunction, Saturn being the exemplar melancholy planet, being strong in one of its own signs, Aquarius. Although Venus is the planet most closely aspecting the Moon (Venus occ. being Cold and Wet in a Cold Wet sign, hence giving a strongly phlegmatic quality), Saturn is a highly influential planet on the Moon in this case.

I am not sure about the temperament of the Sun being judged. Greenbaum is clear that the temperament is about the season, and the qualities of the Moon and Ascendant. The only solar factor per se is the season - spring (sanguine), summer (choleric), autumn (melancholy) and winter (phlegmatic). This individual's Libran Sun marks them as an autumn birth, this being melancholic.

A melancholic individual is bookish and introverted, being something of an 'intellectual' in traditional astrology. They tend to be conscientious, responsible, dutiful and orderly. This doesn't particularly sound like your friend. However, the proportion of sanguine might reflect this individual's work in a social environment (waiter) and their laissez faire (easy come, easy go) attitude to work and life in general.

For the record, the Janus traditional module gives the following analysis:

Melancholic 46%
Sanguine 38%
Phlegmatic 7%
Choleric 7%

Again, this is broadly similar to the methods above. I believe the Janus software method is based on Robert Zoller's medieval approach, as taught in his medieval practitioner course.

hi mark f... thanks for the entertaining and sobering overview on your tenant / friend.. i enjoyed reading it!! sounds like a bit of an oddball weirdo to me! but these terms don't mean the same now as they might have in lillys time!

i never read lilly's work, but i am familiar with his scheme for defining temperament to a small degree.. i read dorian greenbaums book on temperament which i enjoyed, but not a lot of it stuck with me..

i like the fact astralwanderer have there own concept! that intrigues me almost as much as your post..

for me, i still fall back on trying to understand the chart as i have come to learn it over all the learning and reading i have done.. obviously the best way is to know a person starting with yourself and work out from their with family members and then friends and on and on.

for me this chart is a nocturnal one, so the place of the moon becomes more important. in this case moon is closely conjunct saturn and i would be tempted to say - overwhelmed by it. at the same time it is trine the sun as it moves towards the full moon, so reaching out, as opposed to moving in if i can use these words to mean anything..

i mostly think that planets regardless of the sign they are in, convey a particular energy, but that the signs colour it further... the ascendant is obviously very important for a chart reading and for temperament as well. in this chart, the ascendant ruler - mercury is fairly independent minded and a sanguine sign - libra, but as someone else pointed out - rising after the sun, as opposed to before, so more reflective as opposed to dominating..

i get melancholic thanks the saturn/moon conjunction and it's importance here, with ascendant in virgo, followed by sanguine - sun/moon and ascendant ruler mercury in air, followed by choleric - mars square sun, in hayz.. if you throw the neptune/uranus conjunction into the chart - his sun sits on the top of a t square, while mars opposes the nep/uranus - so maybe more choleric due this planetary picture of sun at top of this pattern involving mars, uranus and sun with neptune to a lesser extent..

now obviously mine is not the standard operating procedure for determining temperament as laid out in the traditional gospels, but it is what i get.. thanks for your post and the opportunity to comment here..

I'm still learning this but I do see the difference in the Frawley method.

Jame's method looks primarily at the signs of the most important elements of the chart and these are what gives the sanguine nature that Frawley's method misses. James's method notes that the airy signs contain the Moon, the Sun and the ASC ruler. This honestly sees like a much more straight forward approach. Frawley's method changes that airy Aquarian Moon to a hot, choleric Moon because it is in its second quarter. Frawley also see an occidental Mercury as inherently dry and doesn't let its sign change that dry to wet. Frawley's method seems to downplay the strength of the signs in assessing temperament. They are not primary for him, whereas the nature of the planets are primary, though altered by being either occidental or oriental.

I notice that Astralwanderer doesn't use the Sun at all, though this does not change much as the Sun in Frawley's method is cold and dry due to its fall season.

Neither of their method's used the Lord of the Geniture. I have to say that I'm stuck as to what planet is Lord of the Geniture here. When I wrote it up I thought it was Mercury but perhaps it is Mars. Mars is the only planet that has some essential dignity and is not cadent or retrograde. I believe that Frawley placed more emphasis on accidental dignity.

In one of Frawley's on-line lectures he gives the example of the chart of Pope Julius II. The temperament is sanguine I believe whereas most people see Julius II as being choleric. Frawley says that when any planet is in either the first few or last few degrees of a sign that it likes to act. At the end of a sign it's in a hurry to do things before its time ends, or that it's in a hurry to get out of a bad sign. That is the case here with Jupiter which is right about to leave its detriment in Virgo. Perhaps Jupiter could be the Lord of the Geniture then, or maybe that fact explains his desire to want to be sanguine.

I suspect that what Tom added says a lot too and that is that temperament is not the most important part. Like I said, I'm really just starting with natal. I suspect that if you ignore one factor in a chart in one part of the reading that it will just come back in a different part of it. For example Frawley says that even a strong Sun in the 4th cannot be the hyleg so in a chart like that you just don't have a hyleg. That strong sun in the 4th will still be a big factor in the chart even if we don't assign in the arbitrary title of hlyeg. It all works out in the end.

Did anyone notice that there are four fixed stars that are prominent in this chart? Regulus is about 1?40 from the ASC, Spica is about 40' from the 3rd house cusp, Algol is about 1? from the MC and Sirius is 1?30' from Mars. With the lack of angular planets, this seems like a weak chart but what to make of all of these strong and vital fixed stars? My limited experience is that these stars never give all one thing. They give and they take. Remember Arthur Ashe's chart? I believe he had a fixed star on the ASC - great gain, great loss.

Tom mentioned that lack of water being a lack of drive. I had thought that the phlegmatic temperament was the low energy one. I guess I can see the lack of water meaning a lack of feeling. I might see the lack of an angular planets and a feral ASC ruler as signifying the lack of drive and direction. He is nothing if not a changeable person. Right now he's just vanished to parts unknown and like I said, he looks different every time I see him.

That Moon in the 6th house could show the Crohn's disease as Aquarius is 8 signs from where the Moon rules and the 8th sign is Scorpio, the ruler of the bowels. I have no planets in my 6th house but it's ruled by the Sun which is in Pisces, again the 8th sign from where the Sun rules which would also emphasize digestion problems. This is a problem that we share. This is Lilly's method.

Hi Mark - Greenbaum has a very interesting section in her book on temperament called Temperament and Manners (p. 133 on). She associates temperament with the ascendant and the Moon, these being symbolic of the physical body and the emotional 'mind'. She says that temperament "shows the innate disposition", or I guess, instinctual reactions which are experienced physically and emotionally.

The Sun has a different role, perhaps being more about the spiritual consciousness, and thus to do with higher, more elevated levels, of experience. I think that it is for this reason the Sun is not judged as an element on the temperamental make up.

She contrasts temperament with manners. She associates the latter with the Moon and Mercury. Manners are, she says, the 'quality of the soul'. The Moon is thread that links temperament with the individual's manners. The Moon describes the sensitive soul, and Mercury describes the rational soul. She sets out that the sign of Moon and Mercury, their rulers and/or almutens, and planets aspecting the Moon and Mercury, delineate the soul/manners.

In this case, Saturn is the principle planet of the 'manners' being the ruler and almuten of the Moon, conjunct the Moon, and the almuten of Mercury in Libra. Mercury has no aspects. Saturn, although well placed in Aquarius, is in a difficult house and retrograde. Moreover, it is the malefic 'out of sect' being the diurnal malefic in a nocturnal chart.

This, to me, seems to be a difficult Saturn, giving issues to do with responsibility, specifically in relation to money (2nd house), siblings, close relations, short journeys, communication and learning (3rd) and work and health (6th). Although your friend seems responsible with money (paying bills), his work can't pay particularly well.

In think that in Hellenistic astrology, the rulers of Moon and Mercury would have been constituents of the soul or psyche. There is quite a good chapter in Joseph Crane's book Astrological Roots: The Hellenistic Legacy on the topic (Ch. 5). Crane draws on Ptolemy's material on the subject.

I am still very much learning this material so I offer the information above in that spirit.

Hi there - I am inclined to go for Mercury as Lord of the Geniture. I use Zoller's calculation for the almutem figuris to work out something that is similar to the Lord of the Geniture. I believe he derives this from Ibn Ezra.

The calculation is based on the rulerships of five points: Sun, Moon, Ascendant, POF, and PNL, which in this case is a new moon in Libra.

The scoring is as follows:

Rulership of point=5
Exaltation ruler=4
Triplicity ruler (D/N/P)=3
Term ruler=2
Face ruler=1

The house position of each planet is scored and then 7 points given for the planetary day ruler and 6 for the planetary hour ruler.

House scores are given as follows:

1st or 10th house +5
7th, 4th, 11th house +4
5th or 2nd house +3
9th house +2
3rd house +1
12th house - 5
8th house -4
6th house -3

The house scoring is a slight variation on the Ibn Ezra scores but generally gives exactly the same result. I use the house scores given in the Avelar and Ribeiro book On the Heavenly Spheres. I adopt Zoller's guidance that a planet close to the cusp of a house should be scored as if it was in that house. So, in your case, Mercury is scored as third house rather than second house because it is very close to the third house cusp. (I use Porphyry. With your Regio houses, Mercury is clearly in the third.)

The chart is nocturnal. Mercury has dignity as the triplicity night ruler of air and we have noted the sanguine elements in the chart (Sun and Moon, but also the PNL). Mercury is also sextile ascendant and ruler of the ascendant (by exaltation too). Mercury also rules the hour. So although Mercury is cadent, it seems a better bet than Mars, even though the latter planet has a better position accidentally.

The planet with the most dignity is Saturn, being in a sign that it rules, Aquarius. Mercury comes second, by virtue of it's triplicity rulership of air and it's mutual reception by face with Jupiter. Mars has night triplicity rulership of water, but is in fall.

Mercury, perhaps, makes sense too, because of your friend's noted inconstancy, Mercury being changeable in the extreme. Not only does he come and go without notice or reason, but his appearance is unpredictable.

Hi there - here is temperament data for G W Bush and Donald Trump. The method is described above in my first post:

Bush: 15C, 7S, 4M, 2P
Trump: 17C, 11S, 0M, 0P

Both men are quite similar in temperament.

Greenbaum's method gives:

Bush: 8C, 2S, 0M, 0P
Trump: 8C, 2S, 0M, 0P

The methods give similar results, with mine giving slightly more nuance to Bush's temperament, due to Saturn being almuten of the Moon and the occidental Mercury on the ascendant counted as melancholy.

Bush's reserve might be down to these factors, but perhaps his twelfth house Sun and Saturn might also be important here. Bush's Sun/Saturn in Cancer are in the twelfth by whole signs and Porphyry. Trump's twelfth house (by Porphyry) is empty, unless one counts his Saturn and Venus in Cancer in the twelfth by virtue of their proximity to the cusp (Zoller's five degree rule).

I tend not to apply the rule strictly, but look to the relative sizes of the houses. In Trump's case, I might consider Venus in the twelfth, but Saturn seems a bit wide to me to be included in the twelfth by this rule.

If one is using whole sign houses, Trump's Cancerian planets would be in the twelfth by virtue of the final degree of Leo being the ascendant, and the whole of Leo thus being given to the first house.

Mark You said that your friend's mother died of Huntington's disease My husband died of Huntington's disease. People with neurological diseases like Huntington's and ALS tend to have a strong air chart, which your friend has with those planets in libra and aquarius. Also, mercury appears to have no major aspects to other planets. Ruler of his 12th house is leo and the sun is in an air sign. Just my thoughts but I would not tell him this. AMY

Hi - for the record, I make McEnroe's temperament to be:

12S, 7C, 5P, 4M (for method see above)

Greenbaum gives:

5S, 3P, 1C, 1M

The phlegmatic component in Greenbaum's analysis comes from the season (winter) and the ruler of the ascendant being Venus occidental (phlegmatic).

The relatively low score for choleric using Greenbaum's method doesn't seem to ring true for what we know of McEnroe, one of the supreme sportsmen of his generation. However, of course, we should recognise that she put a great deal of research into her methodology.

The choleric component in my method comes from planets aspecting the ascendant (Sun in Aquarius widely trining the ascendant) and Mars's conjunction with the Moon. McEnroe's outbursts and temper might have been part showmanship, but his Moon-Mars conjunction both opposite Jupiter in the first degree of Sagittarius, is a volatile combination.

Janus's traditional module gives 36% sanguine, 36% choleric, 27% phlegmatic and 0% melancholic.

Chart data: John McEnroe, 16 Feb 1959, 10:30PM CET, Wiesbaden, Germany.