Skyscript Astrology Forum

I am carrying this topic over from the Traditional Forum where sidereal remarks are not allowed to be posted and discussed. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 404#101404

On that forum skorpio87 wrote:

Something I have noticed about many charts is that sometimes the chart seems to perfectly fit what we know about the person, but other times the chart seems completely off. I would say that this is one of those charts that doesnt really seem to fit what is known about the person. At least not when it comes to what this person was most known for.

Quote from ADB (George Campbell):

Scottish polyglot and a linguist at the BBC for many years, author of the Compendium of the World's Languages (Routledge, 2000), as well as Handbook of Scripts and Alphabets (Routledge, 1997). He was listed in the Guinness Book of World Records during the 1980s as one of the world's greatest living linguists, could speak and write fluently in at least 44 languages and had a working knowledge of perhaps 20 others.
(...)

image upload

Skorpio87 continued:

The only things that I can see that would really explain his career choice and linguistic proficiency are the following:

*the tight T-square between mercury, jupiter and saturn (im not really a big fan of modern astrological complex aspect configurations though)
(...)

Most astrologers would agree that for lingustics, the planet Mercury would have to be the key. For such a broad spectrum of so many languages, Jupiter would have to enter the picture as well.

So in theory we need an extraordinary powerful Mercury. In Campbell?s birth chart, Mercury has these strengths:

**Mercury is retrograde. At least in Jyotish a retrograde planet gains strength as generally it is moving slowly.

**Mercury is on the equal house cusp in the 11th house, less than a degree from exactness. In my work I?ve noted that any planet on an equal house cusp shows up strongly in various ways in the life of an individual.

**The ascendant is in the sidereal terms of Mercury (Egyptian).

**From the navamsa chart Mercury falls on the MC. Mercury itself is also ?vargottama? in the same sign in both natal and navamsa charts.

None of these positions is unusual, and none alone would point to linguistic ability. So we have to look further.

The second house is the house of speech (Taurus is natural ruler of the throat). In Campbell?s birth chart Jupiter (in the terms of Mercury) is 12 minutes from exactitude on the 2nd house cusp.

Now this position of Jupiter draws our attention to the configuration of the Saturn opposition (also in Mercury?s terms) to Jupiter, which of course focuses on what modern astrology calls a ?T-square,? with Mercury at the focal point. This configuration is powerful, not because it?s a T-square, but because these planets are the only planets in close contact with the ascendant degree (equal house cusps).

In this case Saturn and Mercury exchange their sidereal terms, so this tightens the relationship between them.

The very tight Moon-Pluto conjunction falls in the terms of Jupiter, so gives strength (serves) Jupiter on the 2nd house cusp.

So in retrospect, aided by other chart factors, especially the Mercurial emphasis, we can deduce that the chart is dominated by the Saturn-Mercury-Jupiter configuration on Ascendant degree cusps.

In the service of Jupiter we also have the Sun and ascendant lord Venus in the terms of Jupiter. So Moon-Pluto-Sun-Venus (and Uranus) as servants, all add power to Jupiter on the 2nd house cusp which is in close aspect to Mercury. (Jupiter?s dispositor Mars conjoins Mercury on the 11th house cusp.)

It is the movement and exchange between and among planets and dispositions that gives the final signature to the strength of Mercury and Jupiter. The sidereal Egyptian terms (bounds) seem to be crucial to this strength. Our knowledge of astrology at this time is too limited to draw these conclusions and observations except in retrospect.

As for Venus at the MC, Cambell played the piano, and his nephew recalled that his uncle was a gentle man with a wry sense of humor and a soft-spoken Scottish burr. (Wiki biography)

Thanks for your reply. It occurred to me that maybe venus at the MC had something to do with languages due to its association with taurus and the throat. In particular, I am aware that in vedic astrology the 2nd house rules over foreign languages. Seen from a vedic point of view I could see how venus at the MC might indicate a career based around speaking or languages due to the 2nd house affinity with taurus, and taurus with venus. Granted this is not the argument you are making, but I thought I would bring that up.

Good catch with the quote at the end regarding campbell playing the piano. I wonder just how accomplished and well known he was for doing that? I suppose its a point that warrants further research

Predicting the career is notoriously difficult in the modern age. I also find the simple method provided by most of the sources to be lacking. As someone with Venus just about to rise, and Mercury 15 ecliptical degrees risen though in the same sign as the ASC, I pursued this question doggedly. My actions are those of a student and not an artist, I can sing and play guitar, and I did pursue that as a job for a year or so, but eventually mercurial activities won out and I am working towards a degree and hopefully a job under the jurisdiction of Mercury. My point is that I think you have to look for supporting indications instead of just seeing Venus at MC and then thinking he will do something venusian. Paul of Alexandria speaks of the Lot of Spirit as sometimes showing what one does, but doesn't give any indication as to what those conditions are. I propose that if one of the three planets of work is in one of the places that shows it being able to signify work (the angles, succeedents and the 6th) while ruling Spirit then it can show it. Also, if it aspects the lord of Spirit pretty closely (as Campbell's Mercury does with its square to Jupiter). There are some other indications I have found, but I will leave them out at the moment as I haven't gotten them fully formulated as yet. I think with this sort of approach, we can get the nuanced view that life generally adheres to. Campbell's Venus is not irrelevant as his playing of the piano testifies to, but it is not as dominant as Mercury is in this context.

Konrad wrote:

My point is that I think you have to look for supporting indications instead of just seeing Venus at MC and then thinking he will do something venusian.

After a lifetime of studying astrology, I haven't found that planets at the MC describe a person's career. Yet there are articles and even a book or two devoted to the importance of the MC as related to career. I wonder what does this say about astrologers and how they think?

I propose that if one of the three planets of work is in one of the places that shows it being able to signify work (the angles, succeedents and the 6th) while ruling Spirit then it can show it. Also, if it aspects the lord of Spirit pretty closely (as Campbell's Mercury does with its square to Jupiter). There are some other indications I have found, but I will leave them out at the moment as I haven't gotten them fully formulated as yet.

This is a research approach worth exploring. As for a final formulation, I don't know...I'm posting here a quote from a dear friend who sometimes had psychic insights for my astrological questions. In this case when I asked about a key to reading birth charts, a pool appeared before his eyes.

"I looked into the pool. the pool was like the sky. There were millions of stars. Then a voice said, "There are so many intricate combinations that it is impossible to remember all the combinations and relationships. Even a computer cannot combine all the variables. Only if one has the spiritual key can there be an understanding of the chart and the path of the individual. Studies may give clues, but the results can never be perfect."

The bottom line is that we will forever be students of astrology, struggling to find the puzzle pieces that when placed together could give us a perfect picture of the individual.

Some years ago I did have a flash of insight that an important clue to chart reading had to do with the movement and interaction of various planetary factors throughout the chart. But this is highly individual and specific to each chart. And it requires a special inner attunement which is almost impossible to attain in our restless, chaotic world. Thus, the ancient astrologers advised a connection with Deity in order to give true predictions.

After a lifetime of studying astrology, I haven't found that planets at the MC describe a person's career. Yet there are articles and even a book or two devoted to the importance of the MC as related to career. I wonder what does this say about astrologers and how they think?

this sounds plausible; but if that is the case, then what does the MC represent?

Konrad wrote:Predicting the career is notoriously difficult in the modern age. I also find the simple method provided by most of the sources to be lacking. As someone with Venus just about to rise, and Mercury 15 ecliptical degrees risen though in the same sign as the ASC, I pursued this question doggedly. My actions are those of a student and not an artist, I can sing and play guitar, and I did pursue that as a job for a year or so, but eventually mercurial activities won out and I am working towards a degree and hopefully a job under the jurisdiction of Mercury. My point is that I think you have to look for supporting indications instead of just seeing Venus at MC and then thinking he will do something venusian. Paul of Alexandria speaks of the Lot of Spirit as sometimes showing what one does, but doesn't give any indication as to what those conditions are. I propose that if one of the three planets of work is in one of the places that shows it being able to signify work (the angles, succeedents and the 6th) while ruling Spirit then it can show it. Also, if it aspects the lord of Spirit pretty closely (as Campbell's Mercury does with its square to Jupiter). There are some other indications I have found, but I will leave them out at the moment as I haven't gotten them fully formulated as yet. I think with this sort of approach, we can get the nuanced view that life generally adheres to. Campbell's Venus is not irrelevant as his playing of the piano testifies to, but it is not as dominant as Mercury is in this context.

Im relieved to know that I am not the only one that has problems seeing the career. Your post is very useful btw, thank you

One exercise I have discovered recently that is good for spotting out career indicators is the following:

1. use the astro databank (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page)

2. click random chart

3. check to see if chart is AA or at least A but make sure not to read the biography

4. just examine chart and try to see what you can tell about the person, afterwards you can check the biography to see whether or not you are right

I apologize if that sounds like a super obvious exercise lol; but in spite of its simplicity, I didn't think to utilize astro databanks in that way for a long time. Its really helped me out lately though and helped accelerate my ability to interpret charts.

Would add that Mercury is stationary (23 h from exact station).

Skorpio87 wrote:

...then what does the MC represent?

The Gauquelin research found evidence that planets on the 9th house side of the MC correlate with psychological traits people display. So there are published trait lists for Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus and the Moon. Nothing was found for the Sun or Mercury.

I've found the Gauquelin trait lists quite helpful in reading birth charts, but not only (and not always) for planets near the MC. The trait lists can be applied in many ways to planets in birth charts. For example a person with Mars conjunct the Sun will exhibit several of the Gauquelin trait words for Mars.

The most helpful use of the MC seems to be as a transit point for planets. If you watch transits over your MC, you may notice events or circumstances that correlate with the nature of the transiting planet. So it's a reference point rather than the cusp of a house (10th) with special meaning for career. The MC is also an important aspect point in mundane events such as earthquakes or severe weather patterns. I suppose we could say it acts like a magnetic point for a planet's expression. The IC acts in a similar way as does the Ascendant, Nonagesimal and Nadir.

skorpio87 wrote:

After a lifetime of studying astrology, I haven't found that planets at the MC describe a person's career. Yet there are articles and even a book or two devoted to the importance of the MC as related to career. I wonder what does this say about astrologers and how they think?

this sounds plausible; but if that is the case, then what does the MC represent?

It still reprrsents honours and career, it just doesn't automatically show what one does. In Campbell's case, Venus as ASC lord on the MC shows that he will have honour and status particularly when Venus is active as a time-lord. The 10th lord, the Moon, in the 9th sign suggests work abroad or in places of learning as does the 9th lord in the sign of the MC. It still shows qualitatively how honours and career are manifested. If he had the 10th lord in a bad house afflicted by a malefic, we could expect his career to take a downturn or for him to experience scandal when active as a time-lord.

Konrad wrote:

It [the MC] still represents honours and career, it just doesn't automatically show what one does. In Campbell's case, Venus as ASC lord on the MC shows that he will have honour and status particularly when Venus is active as a time-lord. The 10th lord, the Moon, in the 9th sign suggests work abroad or in places of learning as does the 9th lord in the sign of the MC. It still shows qualitatively how honours and career are manifested. If he had the 10th lord in a bad house afflicted by a malefic, we could expect his career to take a downturn or for him to experience scandal when active as a time-lord.

Since I use the Vimshottari Dasa system, I haven't studied Hellenistic time-lords. Donald Trump has no planets near the MC; The MC is in Taurus where he does have three planets distant by 23-28 degrees from the MC. Venus is in the 12th sign with Saturn. Konrad, how does the time-lord system point to his ascendancy to the U.S. presidency on January 20, 2017? Thank you!

Donald Trump
14 June 1946
10:54 AM EDT
Jamaica, New York, USA

Hi Therese,

I am in the middle of the busiest part of the semester, so I won't be looking at any charts in-depth right now. If you are still interested in my take, remind me in a month or so and I will go through it step by step for January.

That said, I did look at Trump's chart after the fact in November when he won. I remember that I identified Mercury and Saturn as showing his victory, and a quick look shows he was in a Capricorn month in January according to the profected ASC, so there is that. There are more ways to see status in the chart than the MC such as a planet bodyguarding the luminary of the sect becoming active, or the same for a planet ruling Fortune in a good place. There is also the distinction between the MC and the 10th sign. Back to Trump's chart, by my reckoning he has the MC only 9 minutes into Taurus, so Mars is a realistic lord of the 9th/MC and thus will bring honours with contentions. His Venus in the 12th is also pertinent to his status as his public troubles with women attest to. As I am doing this from memory, I can't remember the bounds that his hyleg and ASC were directed through this year, but the profection falls in Gemini where its lord Mercury is nicely placed. Saturn sits there too in Gemini, and is the lord of the profected MC if we takes Trump's MC to fall in the 9th sign. Both planets share a sign and they aspect by opposition in the revolution joining their significations together in this year. Those significations are in part told by the profected houses they rule (in this case the ASC lord aspecting the 9th/MC lord). It does not hurt that Mercury is in the natal 10th at the time of the revolution. As for November, the monthly profection had reached Scorpio where Saturn was transiting at the time and on the 9th of the month, Mercury ingressed into the sign to join it and activate their revolution figure.

Konrad wrote:

I am in the middle of the busiest part of the semester, so I won't be looking at any charts in-depth right now. If you are still interested in my take, remind me in a month or so and I will go through it step by step for January.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Konrad. Perhaps later we can have more discussion of Time Lords and other Hellenistic techniques. These seem quite complex to me as I've only read about them in passing. And for any particular period in a life, the Indian Dasa period ruling planets can be so different! I suppose that all we can do as astrologers is specialize within one of the major schools of astrology. I've always been very interested in the relationship between Hellenistic and early Indian astrology and how it came to pass that on one hand we have the Time Lord system and on the other a totally different system of Dasas and sub-periods.