I cast this horary chart for a friend of mine who is involved with someone in an on off way and has been for some time, although they are not really getting on at the moment. After seeing him out on Tuesday when he ignored her, she says she is feeling quite desperate about the situation, wanting and hoping for a serious relationship and so I agreed to do the chart.

Chart: Does he love her?
Cast 14.21 15/06/05
Ventnor, Great Britain
using astrodienst and Placidus cusps

The first thing I noticed was the ascendant is right on top of Vindemiatrix, the widowmaker - a generally malefic fixed star. Also it's conjunct Jupiter in the same degree 9 Libra.

Does anyone have any experience of Vindemiatrix in a horary chart - I feel it's hard to ignore, being both exactly on the ascendant and conj Jupiter... I know not everyone pays attention to fixed stars, so I'm very interested to see what people have to say about this.

Apart from Vindemiatrix, there is an applying aspect by translation (by Mercury) where Mars (him) will translate by square to Mercury which then conjuncts her Venus. Symbolic of their stormy relationship, I think... They are both essentially dignified. She has mutual reception by sign with the moon, whereas he is in his sign of Aries. Venus is in 10th conj MC so accidental dignity for her. She is also conj Sirius, so if I am going to take the fixed stars into account this seems quite a powerful symbol.

Mars is in 6th, which is quite apt as this guy works in a bar where my friend often goes, so she sees him whether they are speaking to each other or not.

What does everybody think about fixed stars - to use or not? And Vindemiatrix in particular?

What does everybody think about fixed stars - to use or not? And Vindemiatrix in particular?

Fixed stars do not often figure into a horary, but they are always noteworthy when they fall on an angle particularly the ASC and MC. Stars, like everything else in astrology can be taken as metaphor as well as literally. I would not predict that this guy or anyone else would die based simply on the position of Vindematirx, aka the widow maker. On the other hand the stars do color the chart. Given the situation that you describe, I would look at Vindematirx as an indication that these two aren't going to ride off into wedded bliss.

Apart from Vindemiatrix, there is an applying aspect by translation (by Mercury) where Mars (him) will translate by square to Mercury which then conjuncts her Venus. Symbolic of their stormy relationship, I think... They are both essentially dignified. She has mutual reception by sign with the moon, whereas he is in his sign of Aries. Venus is in 10th conj MC so accidental dignity for her. She is also conj Sirius, so if I am going to take the fixed stars into account this seems quite a powerful symbol.

Mercury translates the light from Mars to Jupiter. TOL in a horary often means the assistance of a third party, but since Mercury squares Jupiter before he goes to Venus, I'm not sure what role it could play here, unless we take Jupiter (because he is so close to the ASC and may better describe the querent than Venus) as the querent. I've seen this sort of thing done with the quesited, but never the querent. Perhaps Deb can enlighten us.

The significators tell a different story. She is Venus and the Moon. Venus is is Cancer and the Moon just entered Libra. To me this shows she's thinking of herself. His Mars is in his own sign, which indicates he's pretty independent, too. Mars is in the exaltation and triplicity of the Sun. The Sun is him as macho man. He's into himself as well.

Venus separates from Mars. The Moon applies to oppose Mars (she may get him, but regret it). With no other assistance and Vindematirx growling on the ASC all indications are that this relationship isn't going anywhere positive. The answer to the question: "Does he love her" seems to be "No."

I must be gumpy; I'm usually not this blunt.

Tom

But wait, what about the mutual reception between the Moon in Libra and Venus in Cancer? Wouldn't that seem to make this relationship more promising? And the moon in any case aspects both significators if it just entered Libra. (Opposes Mars in Aries and Squares Venus, unless you use the reception position of the Moon, in which case it squares Mars and conjuncts Venus.

Or is this just wishful thinking on my part?

But wait, what about the mutual reception between the Moon in Libra and Venus in Cancer? Wouldn't that seem to make this relationship more promising?

She is the querent and as the querent she gets the ASC ruler, and the Moon, unless the Moon is otherwise occupied. Libra rises, the ASC ruler is Venus. The Moon is not otherwise occupied. She is also the Moon. The mutual reception is between querent as person and querent as emotional being. The quesited is Mars. He is unaffected by the mutual reception and is not brought to her by it. Sorry.

Tom

In asking about a love interest, why wouldn't you use the 5th house as well? Isn't the fifth house the house of romance and lovers?

If that's so, then without looking at the chart, I would think that with Libra rising, either Capricorn or Aquarius is on the cusp of the fifth house. If we take that into consideration then we see that Venus comes to a conjunction with it.

If the fifth house rule the actual lover, and the seventh house represents their relationship, then the fifth house is involved positively. However, with no aspect to Mars, ruler of the 7th, it could mean that their is a love relationship but it won't end in marriage.

In asking about a love interest, why wouldn't you use the 5th house as well? Isn't the fifth house the house of romance and lovers?

That's not the way I was taught. The 7th is a person. THe fifth is what you do with the person. It represents, in a chart like this, activity.

If that's so, then without looking at the chart, I would think that with Libra rising, either Capricorn or Aquarius is on the cusp of the fifth house. If we take that into consideration then we see that Venus comes to a conjunction with it.

This shows Venus, assuming no interefering aspects, desiring the activity. Venus wants a lover. We need to get the people together by applying aspect or mutual reception. The other person is the 7th, and its ruler.

If the fifth house rule the actual lover, and the seventh house represents their relationship, then the fifth house is involved positively. However, with no aspect to Mars, ruler of the 7th, it could mean that their is a love relationship but it won't end in marriage.

I wouldn't use the 5th as the other individual in any circumstances. The 7th was always a person. I don't want to confuse the issue, but originally the 7th meant spouse and the 10th was used as the marriage. This makes perfect sense if we see the 10th as representing our status in the world. Whether or not the native is married (assuming an appropriate age) is part of that native's status. By the middle ages, the 7th became the house of the spouse and the marriage. But the 7th has never abdicated its purpose as indicating an individual, usually the significant other.

The primary meaning of the 5th is children, and at some level of reality, all things in a house are connected. Therefore sex, that which produces children, is part of the 5th house. Lilly tells us that the 5th is taverns, ale houses, plays, and banquets. In other words it rules places of pleasure, and things that give pleasure, as sex gives pleasure. Other traditional authors agree. The origin of the meaning is probably from the fact that Venus joys in the 5th, and the house obtains at least some of its meaning from that fact.

There may be some modern horary astrologers who use the 5th as a person, but I'm not one of them. However even if we did use the 5th as a person we need to bring Venus, Lady of the ASC, together with Lord 5, not simply the cusp of the 5th. It's not enough

Tom

Tom, I guess I have always used the fifth house to signify the lover or love interest and so far that's worked for me.

Here's what this website says about the fifth house: "The 5th house - the 'joy' of Venus - is often called the house of 'love affairs' for it has a traditional association with pleasure, delight, love and gifts. Finding the Moon or a main significator in the 5th may suggest a heightened passion or pleasure in the relationship, but does not always bode well for long term commitments."

So it would seem the fifth house has to be implicated when we're talking about a love affair as opposed to a marriage. But if I've been using the wrong house all along for the person who is the lover, that is interesting and obviously could give a very different result.

Here's what this website says about the fifth house: "The 5th house - the 'joy' of Venus - is often called the house of 'love affairs' for it has a traditional association with pleasure, delight, love and gifts.

And this is quite correct. A love affair is not an individual, it is an event that occurs between two people. It does not signify either one of them. Lilly uses the 7th house in his relationship horaries. He never uses the 5th to signify the quesited. Lord one applies to Lord five? She wants the love affiar. No connection between lords one and seven. He's not interested.

Tom

Hi Voyagergirl,

I wrote the passage referred to and agree with Tom's explanation.

Questions concerning the basis of your one-to-one relationship with another person would take signification for the ?other? from the 7th house. This axis shows the viability of contracts or commitments between two people. Horaries such as ?what does he think of me?? are generally exploring the potential of a commitment between the two people involved, whether its an emotional commitment or a practical commitment that will lead to marriage.

What I meant when I wrote: "Finding the Moon or a main significator in the 5th may suggest a heightened passion or pleasure in the relationship, but does not always bode well for long term commitments"

- was that the ruler of the 7th house positioned in the 5th, may show that person as very charming and pleasurable to be around, and interested in enjoying the ?romance? of the relationship. Because the 5th house is also related to love making, this may be what they are interested in also. But romance being what it is, such relationships can have a hard time dealing with any difficult practical realities (this is when other indications suggest weakness in the relationship of course).

Thanks for clarifying the 5th house/7th house differences. I am anxiously awaiting "venusinscorpio's" result as to what actually happened.

By my method, there is a love interest on both parts, but it won't lead to marriage. We'll see!

I'm been giving the fifth house/seventh house significators a lot of thought. As you may know, I was taught to use the fifth house to signify a lover, while the 7th was used to signify a marriage partner, or potential marriage partner.

The problem with using the 7th as "the other person" gives rise to problems when you have a question involving both a lover and a spouse as in "will she leave her husband for me?"

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/relationships.html#leave

If you use the 7th to signify the lover, then her spouse is then ruled by the radical first, which also rules the querent!

Then the aspects between the 1st and 7th would apply to both the lover's spouse and the querent and that seems very confusing.

So I interpreted the chart using the method I was taught: the lover is signified by the fifth, and her spouse is indicated by the 7th from the 5th, or the 11th.

Using this method, I judged the aspects between her and her husband, ruled by the 5th and the 11th, to be more promising than the aspects between her and her lover, ruled by the 1st and 5th.

So I get the same answer. I'm going to keep studying this to see if the results are consistent with future charts.

The problem with using the 7th as "the other person" gives rise to problems when you have a question involving both a lover and a spouse as in "will she leave her husband for me?"

There is always more than one way to skin a cat. In a case like this, we can't use the 7th of the 7th as that is the ASC and the sole property of the querent. What to do then? Receptions will usually tell you. John Frawley notes that the cheated upon spouse often ends up with Saturn as his/her significator because Saturn indicates the person who is "spoiling all the fun."

The original question, as I recall, did not involve a third person, [to wit]

I cast this horary chart for a friend of mine who is involved with someone in an on off way and has been for some time, although they are not really getting on at the moment. After seeing him out on Tuesday when he ignored her, she says she is feeling quite desperate about the situation, wanting and hoping for a serious relationship and so I agreed to do the chart.

so I don't know how to apply my example. It was "Does he love her?' and I don't recall the mention of another person involved. Therefore, "He" gets the 7th, since there is no other person, and the delineation works from that point on. To introduce this important third player after the question has been asked and answered is a bit confusing. If all she wants to know is "does he love me?" We don't need the husband in the chart. The lover either loves her or he doesn't. If she wants more, then that is the question that should have been asked. At this point, I don't know what the true question is.

Tom