Margherita wrote:
I should disagree 100% Do you know some source where two different sets of rules are mentioned, one for horary and the other for natal astrology?
Good to see our yin-yang polarity is back on track.
No I cant think of any traditional author making such an explicit distinction. I wasn't suggesting 'different sets of rules' in relation to essential dignities although there clearly are some idiosyncratic 'horary rules' in terms of delineation. My point was more about a different emphasis for a different branch of astrology. Do we need a traditional text to have an astrological opinion? Are traditionalists only allowed to repeat parrot fashion what earlier authorities state? Of course not. Incidentally, why bother to quote Ptolemy? Do you think he did horary?
We all look at charts and meet real people where we get a chance to match theory to practice. We also have the innate capacity to reflect and put astrological theory through the prism of philosophical scrutiny. We don?t need a traditional text to give us the ok that natal and horary astrology have important differences.
Horary relates to a specific question. The scope is usually restricted to a short period of time (days, weeks or months) and the issue at stake is quite restricted. Natal astrology on the other hand relates to an entire life and its scope is almost unlimited in that context. I don?t want to infringe on the philosophy forum but I think this issue relates fundamentally to how we view the subject of free will. I personally think we have a degree of freewill but how much we can exercise that depends on both how free we are of our conditioning.
I think that is why horary can be so accurate in predictive terms. Quite simply most people are predictable because in the short time scale and scope of a question they usually follow their conditioning. In the time frame of a horary question there is less scope to step back from our conditioning. A nativity is quite different. The symbolism is more fluid and can refer to various associations. Just as in translating Chinese into English the Chinese characters can have various meanings when converted to English. I don?t deny that can be applied to horary too but it?s a question of degree.
All of us have what the German philosopher Martin Heidegger called ?throwness? . We are literally thrown by birth into a particular time, place, family, ethnic group , religious and linguistic culture. All of these factors influence a person?s development. I am not suggesting planets in detriment or fall dont manifest in natal terms. In some respect it will always be reflected. Its more an issue of how. I think we need to avoid the mentality that such planets are necessarily ?weak? or doomed to lack fulfilment. None of this changes the natal promise of a nativity but we should never forget a person has a lifetime to work through such challenges and integrate them.
I haven?t looked at their ideas in detail but I believe both Lee Lehman and Bernadette Brady have expressed similar views. Brady has run a course on medieval astrology while Lee Lehman is noted for her writings on traditional natal and horary.
They tend to discuss such planets expressing in an unconventional or more obscure way due to the conflict between the planet and the sign and its ruler. Naturally, sometimes the more dire implications of fall or detriment do express themselves in a nativity. However, we cant leap to such an assumption.
It could be argued though this is over simplistic and obscures the traditional distinction between detriment and fall. For example Morin describes fall as 'numbing and weakening' while detriment is 'corrupting and peverse'. Ibn Ezra describes fall as 'worry, distress and hardship'. The notion of a person expressing a planet in fall in more positive way could be seen quite literally in terms of travelling or living away from the homeland or more negatively being ignored or neglected or dismissed. The idea of unconventionality is also consistent with detriment rather than fall. However, its 'corrupting' influence can be seen a self destructive too. For example, Ibn Ezra describes a planet in detriment as like a person fighting with himself.
In its own dignities a planet can act as it wants (mitigated by house placement, aspects etc) It its debilities the same planet is seen to be clumsy, inconsistent and yields corrupted or altered results. Generally, such planets show imperfect or incomplete execution of what they promise. Robert Zoller compared the general difference between a dignified and debilitated planet as that of a drunk and sober person. The drunk can still walk and talk but in a much more clumsy and unsatisfactory manner than a sober person.
Naturally there are lots of nuances mentioned in the tradition. For example, malefics in detriment are generally seen as worse in effect than benefics. Equally, house placement and aspects to benefics/malefics can improve or worsen the delineation. Morin suggests matters are worse if the sign of detriment or fall is of a gender or elemental quality that is inimical to the planet. So Venus is made worse by placement in Aries than in Scorpio. Hellenistic sources would emphasize sect so that a planet in fall would be made worse if it conflicted with the sect of the chart. Like the medievals they would also look at sign placement and the planetary dispositor.
Looking at Federer's chart the peregrine Mercury is important ruling both his ASC and MC. Peregrination is weakening but not a debility in the way detriment or fall are. A peregrine planet is traditionally a 'wanderer' like a person not in his native country. As always its effects depend on its rulers or accidental associations by aspect and its placement by house. Here Mercury conjoins the sign ruler (The Sun) and is received by it in its domicile rulership. The planets in fall and the peregrine Mercury all emphasize exile or travel from home and Federer has of course made his fame by constantly globe trotting on the international ATP Tennis event tour. Although travel is usually just linked to the 3rd and 9th houses all the cadent houses can be linked to travel. Equally all the succedent houses can be linked to different ways we interact financially.
I understand Federer has dual Swiss and South African nationality and speaks numerous languages fluently. Regarding his Mars its interesting that he had a problem in his early career with temper tantrums on court and was referred to a sports counsellor to address this.
Mark
